I'm returning to my original intention with blogging, to express my own thoughts, explore my own questions... though will probably revisit some recent threads.
Was gripped and moved by The Beckoning Silence (TBS) on C4 last week, a docudrama narrating the doomed attempt of four German climbers to scale the north face of the Eiger in 1936. It featured Joe Simpson, climber of Touching the Void (TTV) fame, attempting a parallel climb, and also offering his reflections on the original ascent. JS is an atheist, made clear in TTV, but has also been quite deeply affected by the whole climbing business, and has some profound reflections on it. He says that the knife edge balance you negotiate on a serious climb, between success and failure, life and death, gives you a radically different perspective on life (I'm sure it does!). That climbing a dangerous mountain is really a completely irrational thing to do (also quite obsessional), but that that's a big part of its draw; and that he will never understand why, in his own TTV Peruvian adventure, where he was hanging from a rope like Kurz in TBS, he survived - but Kurz did not. Quite existential stuff, grappling with issues and qs very relevant to faith. I can't help but admire the passion of these guys to push the envelope and probe the boundaries of life and existence. Will need to come back to this.
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5 comments:
Bruce,
I'll paste a comment here that I put on Jonathan's blog:
One of the biggest realisations I had had with atheism is that it is me alone who is able to make things happen in my life - that is a good feeling after feeling constantly rejected by god. Something I became acutely aware of on an iced up rock rib in glen coe - if I lived or died, it was down to me - and a bit of luck. Afterward a friend (we were not roped up) asked me "were you tempted to pay during that?" My reply was "was i bo***cks"- Very liberating
Jimmy, I dont know if you are familiar with touching the void by Joe Simpson. He broke his leg at about 20 000 ft and his companion tried to lower him down on a rope. Eventually, he was dangling over a crevasse, and his partner had to cut the rope. He was left for dead at the bottom of a crevasse. He had this to say: "At 16, I asked all these monks some serious questions and they didn't come up with the answers, and I just decided I didn't believe in God. And I always thought, you know, if everything hit the fan, then I might turn around and say, you know, a couple of Hail Marys, "Can you get me out of here?" And in all those days, I never did once, not even in the crevasse. I never thought of some God or some omniscient being that'd lean down and give me help, and I feel, actually, if I had believed that, I just would've stopped and waited for it, and I would've died. And so in a way, that's why that loneliness, I think, came in. I was 25, I was fit, strong, ambitious. I wanted to climb the world and I was dying. There was no afterlife, there's no paradise, there's no heaven. It's just dead. And I really didn't want to lose that. I've got immense respect for other people's religions, be it Christian or Buddhist, Hindu or Muslim. I just…I don't happen to have a belief, and I've tested that atheism, so, um, I respect my own lack of belief now. Before, I was never quite sure."
I like this because I can identify with it. Puting my faith in myself stoped me from being complacent. It made me more awarwe of my own abilities - something that I think christians all too often fail to credit themselves for. It lets you know that the only barrier you have is yourself. This contrasts with the feeling I had as a christian where I felt dependent on god for everything - as a result, I wasted a few valuble years living a shaddow of a life.
I wouldn't say I totally agree with it being an irrational thing to do - there are benrfits after all - fame, confidence, adrenaline etc - probably even a result of our need to be bold to survive as a species - we didn't evolve in a welfare state after all.
Billy
Hi Billy. Thought I'd drop in here to ask a bit about what you just talked about.
When you were talking about feeling dependent on God as a Christian, in what ways did that dependence manifest itself negatively? Can you give an example of how that contributed to you not being able to embrace life or live life to the full?
Did you feel powerless to control your own decisions, or as if you had no interest in forming your own future? As though human error on your part could be attributed to "not meant to be" mentality. Or equally, things that you achieved yourself had the glory somehow 'stolen' by God?
In those knife-edge situations described, I don't think a Christian would ever feel as though the right thing to do would be to give up and wait for God. That would betray some rather blinkered theology.
God expects us to do everything in our power to change circumstances for the better, and invokes us to invoke HIM in circumstances -beyond- our power.
I have experience of how depending on myself to get a job done can be gratifying. I just don't understand how being a Christian prevents this from being gratifying. A Christian feels that they have been called, gifted and placed just to do the task in front of them, but they ought not to feel that God is going to just step in and bail them out if they choose to give the task less than their best.
But perhaps you can give an example of the kind of thing you are talking about here.
BTW, still adding, subtracting and editing my response to your email from a while back.Sorry to take so long.
Hi Beat interesting questions, but before I start, I want to make it clear that I did not lose faith because the experience was crap. I'll try and keep it brief for now.
in what ways did that dependence manifest itself negatively?
Lots of ways. You constantly felt that your goals were not in harmony with god's plan for you. You believe that god will help you fulfil whatever his plan is, and you often think you know what that plan is based on circumstances, honest evaluation of your strengths and weaknesses, and what you feel you need in terms of support from him - it was actually more than dependence that made me feel crap. It was also the constant silence over what I should do. For example, I was reaching an important time in my career. I was also feeling drawn towards councelling. The councelling would have meant having to do a half day or so a week at ICC. This would have been bad for my current work and would have depended on having a sympathetic employer. There were spiritual and non spiritual pros and cons relating to either choice, but I was willing to do what ever god wanted me to do. Despite much prayer, no answer came, and that left me feeling rejected by god. In some ways, I was dependent on an answer. I wanted to do what would glorify him most - but all I got was silence. It was the same with many other situations that I am not prepared to go into.
Did you feel powerless to control your own decisions, or as if you had no interest in forming your own future?
I felt powerless for some. Some I could definately have taken into my own hands and got what I wanted, but that would not have helped my relationship with god, I was depending on him to deliver a more appropriate solution - sorry to be vague, but it's personal, and I dont know you or most of the people reading this. YOu could take the attutude that was my way out, but I had nothing confirming it to be so. I definately had my own plans, but as a christian, you try to submit them to god - I never saw his hand anywhere - the same result as if he didn't exist.
Or equally, things that you achieved yourself had the glory somehow 'stolen' by God?
I never recieved anything that I could have atributed to god and what I did, I did to try and give glory to him (as a digression, if god is perfect, how does giving him glory actually enhance him? it seems like vanity to me).
In those knife-edge situations described, I don't think a Christian would ever feel as though the right thing to do would be to give up and wait for God. That would betray some rather blinkered theology.
Well, such theologies exist. How may times have you been told to just trust god? How many times have you told people to trust him? Why does god not say clearly. If you believe god has a plan for you, then surely you must expect him to provide for you? What do you make of verses such as give us this day our daily bread? Is it literal bread or needs? what about "thy will be done"? Not mine, but his will. Surely this puts you in a position of dependence and gives you an expectation that things will fall into place. This would be evidence of a relationship. I saw none! All the time, I am trying to stifle my own will to do his, to transform into the likeness of jesus, that he supposedly wants from us.
There are so many books written that tell you that god is the provider of everything in your life. What I was getting at earlier is that if I want a particuar life style or whatever, then I have to achieve it myself. I have heard so many christians say things like they have the house, wife, job, exam results, athletic ability, children etc that they have because god gave it to them - the got it by doing things themselves - working, training, studying etc. You dont need god to achieve anything.
God expects us to do everything in our power to change circumstances for the better, and invokes us to invoke HIM in circumstances -beyond- our power.
Circular reasoning here. It also assumes that there are things out with your power - and thats something I was referring to earlier. It is a negative attitude. If I have the ability to do something, why do I need to invoke god? If god only grants that which is in his will, then why ask for it? Surely it will happen anyway.
Then as mentioned above, how do you know what to change if god stays silent. How many times have you thought you knew gods p[lan, only to have it all fall through - Bruce, did you think that WEC position that you are no longer pursuing was part of god's plan? There are many more examples that I could ask you about, but we wont go into them here.
I have experience of how depending on myself to get a job done can be gratifying. I just don't understand how being a Christian prevents this from being gratifying.
The gratifying bit comes from knowing that you can do it yourself. Many christians I have met take the view - it's not happening, its not god's will, give up. I now see things more in terms of Robert de Bruc and the spider. Something faith prevented me from seeing. If god was there, would it really have been too much to ask that he would put me right if my view of him was wrong?
Short of seeing an amputee grow a new limb, I dont imagine ever believing in god again, so in a way, if god is there, his silence has helped me not to believe.
Starting to ramble cos I'm getting hungry. Hope that satisfy for now. Maybe we will end up exchanging verses on what dependence on god means - that though would just highlight the inconsistencies of the bible. But perhaps just to get you thinking, what is the logical extension of this verse "Are any among you sick? They should call for the elders of the church and have them pray over them, anointing them with oil in the name of the Lord. The prayer of faith will save the sick, and the Lord will raise them up; and anyone who has committed sins will be forgiven. Therefore confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another, so that you may be healed. The prayer of the righteous is powerful and effective." (Jas 5:14-16). To me it says all you need to do is pray and god will intervene - dont take medicine. In reality though, you will probably die of anthrax. So you go and see the doctor (he doesnt need to be chrstian, and it works for believers and non believers equally), he gives you some penicillin and you live.
Billy
Thanks Billy and BA for your thoughtful qs and responses. Billy I've copied key parts of your response to a record I keep of blog comments to return to, as I can't respond to it all just now, but just a few initial thoughts as I was reading:
Prayer can mean spending time in silence - and yes I believe that involves God's presence (a statement of faith I know but I'll just need to leave it as such just now for the purpose of making my point) - and a process of 'listening', attuning my spirit to the Spirit of God who (I believe) works deep within - and aligning my spirit with his. This leads to a greater sense of harmony and clarity about my life and direction. (I know there are psychological dimensions to this but, as with science, I don't think this precludes the reality of God being involved too).
I don't believe God always or even usually gives crystal clear guidance about a specific path to take when I am at the start of a process of seeking. It is as I take a step at a time, not entirely sure, that it often becomes clearer, Isaiah 30:21: 'Whether you turn to the right or to the left, your ears will hear a voice behind you, saying, "This is the way; walk in it." ' The first half of this verse describes hearing 'a word behind you'; in my own experience this has not been an audible word but a 'witness in my spirit' a sense deep down that this is a good way to take. But it is an example of the way I believe God commonly works, 'speaking' and guiding in my spirit as I take steps myself.
I know this opens up further qs, but I'll have to return.
PS As you see I've removed comment moderation. I wd rather keep it like this so dialogue is free, open and not delayed. I'd ask in return for us to continue to be polite, keep language decent etc as far as possible; I'm keen for any outside readers not to be put off reading. I'll try and do my bit not to antagonise again. Cheers!
Hi Bruce,
It seems that your model requires no god. I expect interaction in a relationship, I dont see that in your model. Would it be fair to say that those things that "work out" you attribute to god, but only after the result? For me, that is just bumbling about in the dark with no guidance.
Billy
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