Responding to Billy's comment below: Billy, as expected you have provided a forest of a response to tackle, and I am only going to try and hack my way through it a bit at a time. Where to begin? At present we're approaching the issue/question of the reality (or non-) of God from such different places. From your negative experience of faith and church, it strikes me you have decided for yourself God is not real, and have constructed a complex web of reasons to justify that position to yourself. Being a scientist, and I know having boned up a fair bit on biblical studies too, you are able to draw from a wide pool of knowledge and information to construct and defend your position. You cannot deny - and perhaps wouldn't try to - the strong impact your own experience had on the process which has lead you to think what you currrently do. Nothing wrong with our experience influencing us - it's common to us all. I'd just want to start by highlighting the subjective element - experience and emotion - that has shaped your own journey of thought and belief; it's been influential on you as it is on others. I hope you'd acknowledge that.
As I say, a bit at a time. And don't worry, I won't get personal. I'm blogging this partly cos it my be of wider interest and, being a Metro contributor, don't think you'll mind others reading.
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7 comments:
Bruce, please don’t take this as a personal attack, but that is the kind of typical christian response that really annoys me. Please step out of the bubble of faith for a moment and realise the reason that I had a bad experience is because God is not there, not because there is something wrong with me!
It is NOT about justifying something to myself, but actually being swayed by the evidence – or in the case of faith lack of it. This includes the fact there is no evidence of the supernatural, moral problems with the bible, the 6 day creation (which is meant to be taken literally), contradictions in the bible, anachronisms in the bible, failed prophecies, contrived prophetic fulfillment and made up prophecies etc …To be honest, I found myself ignoring this stuff in the past to enable belief, but that was intellectually dishonest of me – I have now righted that wrong in my thinking.
Did you take in what I said about the fact that the burden of proof lies with those making the claim that god exists. I therefore don’t have to disprove anything in the lack of evidence. Also, it is not science vs faith, but reason vs faith, there is a difference.
How many times do I have to tell you and others this? It may be convenient for the faithful to bury their heads in the sand over this issue, but it really is an exercise in self delusion. It seems that you have set up a shell that you can not step out of and realize that people reject faith by exploring it deeply. I find that attitude very insulting considering I suffered greatly to try and hold on to this faith, yet you are implying that it is something that I am looking for reasons to give up. I recommend that you try and address the arguments and not try and dabble in amateur psychology – you just get it wrong!
If you pray over an amputee and he grows a new limb, then that is undeniable – no matter what my motives may or may not be. Having been there, I suggest that to you all experience must be viewed in a constraining frame work of a god who has the qualities that you want him to have (which in your case ignores the monster of the Old Testament who kills babies and makes people eat them). I think it is the faithful that are the ones who are not looking clearly. You are a supernaturalist, how do you distinguish your brand from others? What are your criteria?
You take offense that Dawkins groups all religions together as irrational, but you have not shown your religion to be any different to the others. In this respect, he is right to compare god with fairies.
I hope you don’t take this too personally, it is not meant as a personal attack, by I really get fed up with this assumption that there must be something wrong with me – it’s bad enough that the whole of Christianity is based on the assumption that we are all so evil that we deserve to go to hell, so maybe this influences your thinking.
All the best
Billy
I'll get back on Mon, got to fly. But I didn't say something was wrong with you.
But I didn't say something was wrong with you.
You may not have meant it, but that is what you have said. You effectivly are saying that I am not looking properly because of bad experience. This means that I am unable to see god, therefore there is something wrong with me.
Actually, the bible would say there is something wrong with all non believers (ps 14:1) and that we deliberately dont want to believe (2 peter 3:5-6) I guess you know what I thinj of that.
Like I say, evidence is evidence. The only thing bad experience has done is make me question and realise that there is no reason to believe in god.
See you monday
Billy
Hi Billy
what you need is a loving christian hug
and a few verses of kum ba yah sung to you by a few well meaning young christians accompanied by someone learning to play the guitar.
this I'm sure would cure you from these silly and heady notions that God does not exist.
well it worked for me but perhaps it wouldn't have the same effect on you, but I think it would still worth a try.
Long time lurker, first time commenter. I was directed to this site by Billy a while ago.
Bruce-
While it is self-evident that experience shapes us, to say that Billy's bad experience skews his opinions does him a disservice. If anything, it is belief that forces you to build complex frameworks of justification.
The circumstances of my progression to atheism are far simpler than Billy's. I essentially drifted from religion to atheism. There was no single defining moment, but merely a succession of "That doesn't make sense" moments that culminated in my rejection of religion. For me it is also very much about the evidence.
Bruce- if someone were to come to you and make a claim, such as that your life was in danger, you would certainly ask them why they thought that. But if their response was not to provide you with an explanation, but instead to say that it was incumbent upon YOU to disprove their claim, it is unlikely that you would become convinced that you were about to die. (A strange analogy, but I hope you get what I'm trying to say).
When it comes down to it, I examined my belief critically, over the course of several years, and they did not hold up against what I could see in the world around me.
That is not to say that I am not interested in continuing to examine my "belief" that God does not exist. This lies at the root of why I continue to contribute to the Richard Dawkins site, and why I debate theists. What will sway me is the evidence, not merely from personal experience (although that is sometimes helpful), but from the world around me. If anyone can provide that, then I would certainly be willing to consider it.
So far, I have not seen much of it. Can you show me some, Bruce?
Jonathan (AKA Quetzalcoatl, so Billy knows who I am).
Don't know about that Jimmy, Quetzalcoatl has already promised to send me Jessica Biel and he does do a refreshing cup of tea. You should follow him instead.
Billy
Strangely enough Billy a beautiful woman - to me - is one of the wonders of the creation of God.
If you really want to see a miracle then all you have to do is look at a picture of Ms Biel.
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