Picking up from the end of that last post, and that paean to a Madonna song... want to explore my broader point about music - and indeed other creative endeavours - a little more. My broad observation is that creative material produced by Christians can often appear bland and lacking in emotional punch, innovation or experimentation, in comparison with secular material (take that 'Hives' youtube video on Gadgetvicar's blog as an example of innovation). And I'm interested in why that is. My disclaimer at the outset is that of course I'm generalising here, and recognise there is some great material on the Christian side and some lousy stuff on the secular side, and also that taste is to a degree subjective... That said, here's my current take on it: for starters, I guess a lot of religious/worship music is produced in a 'Christian music' type context , where the composers and musicians are influenced by what is current and what has gone before in what may be a relatively closed community. And in a lot of Christian music, this means, for example, extensive use of a particular keyboard setting - you know, the one that just sounds so 'Christian'! It strikes me the secular music industry, being generally I think more open and competitive, is an environment often more likely to foster pioneering creativity in the actual art of making music. There's another issue that I wonder about. Take a song like Madonna's 'Live to tell'; or 'Somewhere only we know' by Keane to pick just two on my mind; I guess a big reason for the emotional power of the music is that the song expresses a deep but accessible dimension of human experience - human relationships, love, betrayal - the kind that inspires artists' passion. I think with secular artists this passion to express deep feeling, ask deep questions - the whole quest aspect - is what drives such powerful music.
Worship music is of course doing a different thing, and comes in many varieties, eg meditative, proclamatory, exuberant... and then there's other kinds of Christian music... I guess one of my key questions is, in view of the fact that some of the big questions and emotions that secular artists tackle find peace-giving 'responses' in the Christian faith... how can artists (in broad sense) with faith go about accessing passion and allowing it to generate powerful and creative music/art? The Christian conviction is surely that the journey of faith opens up even deeper, greater passions. What then might be holding back Christian artists from producing even more powerful music, writing, art, than their secular counterparts?
Answers on a postcard please(!) Some overlapping issues here, and got a feeling I'm just scratching the surface...
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Oh dear, at the risk of sounding like a christian.....
Surely worship should be spontaneous and not forvcced - should it not be an outward sign of your inward feelings on your relationship with the god you believe in? Maybe you should consider whether "secular" expression is more satisfying because it "speaks" to you more. I ofyen felt there was too much emphasis at church on "making" folk worship. The Billy Conolly joke about the music teacher teaching the class mhari's wedding comes to mind. Often it was like being told - SING! SING!Another problem with christian music is that some of it is just cheesy rubish(shine jesus shine - shudder, cringe, donny osmond look alikes!)! It often tells you how you should feel, and does not deal with how you are actually feeling.
How often are you singing something in church and you suddenly think "wait a minute, I dont agree with that".
Christian music may relfect hoe the artist feel, or thinks he should feel, but you have to express things the way you want to.
These are some reasons I found christian music too much to bear. It always focuses on cuddly things. When I hear all things bright and beautiful, I cringe, and then think of Eric Idles All things dull and ugly for balance - If you are going to think about creation, you should include all of it (In fact, I found myself unable to sing that because it denies the nature of the natural world - and there is no mention of evolution)
All things dull and ugly,
All creatures short and squat,
All things rude and nasty,
The Lord God made the lot.
Each little snake that poisons,
Each little wasp that stings,
He made their brutish venom,
He made their horrid wings.
All things sick and cancerous,
All evil great and small,
All things foul and dangerous,
The Lord God made them all.
Each nasty little hornet,
Each beastly little squid,
Who made the spikey urchin,
Who made the sharks, He did.
All things scabbed and ulcerous,
All pox both great and small,
Putrid, foul and gangrenous,
The Lord God made them all.
AMEN.
Hope that gives you some food for thought
Billy
I see moderation is back :-(
PS, you have made a reference to cliff richars - need I say any more?
Billy
Now Bruce, you know I'm always polite! Stupid man. :-)
Off the top of my head- perhaps certain styles of music viewed by some as not "Christian" or at the least, not suitable for playing in churches, church gatherings etc. Lyrics are also a factor, not in the obvious "no swearing" sense. You mention that a lot of secular music asks "deep questions" that Christians feel they have the answers to. Perhaps in some Christian circles there's an element of "Why have Christian music that asks these questions, when we already know the answers".
These are obviously generalisations, but I hope you get what I'm driving at.
Obviously competition fuels the music industry, and I think also that the wide variety of music influences people to try new things ie blending the styles of different groups to make their own unique sound. Not so much scope for that in Christian music.
Journey of faith opens up even deeper, greater passions- perhaps, but this is a difficult concept to really get into in discussion, let alone condense it into a song! Secular music might also have a wider appeal because the things they sing about are accessible to a wide audience, because they're concepts they understand. On the other hand, deep journeys into faith and the big questions are concepts that not even all Christians get into, let alone anyone else!
Finally- what holds Christian musicians back- perhaps difficulty of doing something new in a "scene" that might not be as accepting of experimentation as the secular music industry is? Fear of judgement- too many people who don't like change.
Obligatory plug- any Christian friends of Bruce reading this, feel free to check out my blog "Musings of a Strange Mind"- the link's on the main page. Cheers!
And my atheist readers, you are as ever free to comment, but please be respectful as I'm asking some church friends what they think too...
Respect is a 2 way thing bruce. I was once disturbed during dinner by a knocking at the door, only to be told I was a sinner - Nice! I wouldn't have minded so much, but I was living in St Andrews at the time - there is nothing do do there that would allow you to get up to some sinning!
Billy
Oh dear, at the risk of sounding like a christian.....
Surely worship should be spontaneous and not forvcced - should it not be an outward sign of your inward feelings on your relationship with the god you believe in? Maybe you should consider whether "secular" expression is more satisfying because it "speaks" to you more. I ofyen felt there was too much emphasis at church on "making" folk worship. The Billy Conolly joke about the music teacher teaching the class mhari's wedding comes to mind. Often it was like being told - SING! SING!Another problem with christian music is that some of it is just cheesy rubish(shine jesus shine - shudder, cringe, donny osmond look alikes!)! It often tells you how you should feel, and does not deal with how you are actually feeling.
How often are you singing something in church and you suddenly think "wait a minute, I dont agree with that".
Christian music may relfect hoe the artist feel, or thinks he should feel, but you have to express things the way you want to.
These are some reasons I found christian music too much to bear. It always focuses on cuddly things. When I hear all things bright and beautiful, I cringe, and then think of Eric Idles All things dull and ugly for balance - If you are going to think about creation, you should include all of it (In fact, I found myself unable to sing that because it denies the nature of the natural world - and there is no mention of evolution)
Billy
Sorry those comments have all ended up in the wrong order guys - a peril of moderating it appears - will try and sort that.
Why has the spectre of moderation once more returned to haunt the Brushwood Thicket?
Hi Jonathan, it's actually aimed here, paradoxically, at encouraging comment from Christians; eg Billy included a song in his comment that I felt wd put off my Christian friends from getting involved, so excised it. He's welcome to post it on your blog if he wants!
So it's nothing personal; don't worry in the main I trust you all to be careful. And I'll only moderate when I feel it's appropriate, as here.
Hi Bruce,
Nice of you to tell Jonathan what I can post on his blog. Moderation was actually on before I posted it.
If you are going to edit, you should show me the edited version first - I would not at all be hapy if I thought a point was weakened or misrepresented through editing.
Anyone interested in the song, just google "all things dull and ugly"
bILLY
Anyone interested in the song, just google "all things dull and ugly"
Billy
(It's the other Jonathan here, which means its a comment from one of your Christian friends.)
I reckon there's an underlying factor that needs to be introduced here: the Christian Music Industry.
It's largely driven from the US where the Contemporary Christian Music (CCM) is huge - possibly 10% of the total music market. You see CCM sections in all shops that sell music, alongside Jazz, Pop, Rap etc. There's no incentive to break out of that CCM category, as people won't understand you, and you'll lose sales. There are other drivers that discourage people to rock the boat.
There's probably little purchase of CCM outside Christians and its fringe, so therefore there's also little incentive to be more creative and break out of the standard Christian argot, which I think is a huge shame. (I think it's much worse for lyrics than the music itself, as there are Christians writing music in as many genres as secular artists. Or at least since about 1970 when Larry Norman showed you could be a Rocker and a Christian.)
Some in the UK realise this. Years ago I heard respected Christian songwriter Noel Richards talking about the poor state of lyrics from Christian writers. He cited Elton John/Bernie Taupin's "Into the boundary / Of each married man / Sweet deceit comes calling / And negativity lands ... And it's no sacrifice / Just a simple word / It's two hearts living / In two separate worlds ..." and the rest of the song "Sacrifice" as being head and shoulders above anything from Christians on a failing marriage.
He then argued that (as you're all saying) that real Jesus-inspired music should be in the forefront of exploring where people and places are broken, so healing and restoration can come.
Thankfully there are good examples I can point you at: Bruce Cockburn springs first to mind. He has many tracks over many albums exploring the pain and suffering seen in (amongst others) Vietnam, "The Mines of Mozambique", "Birmingham [Alabama] Shadows", "Postcards from Cambodia", "This is Baghdad" etc. And he is (thankfully) no mean musician, and has plenty of songs where he sees Light in unexpected places, so it can be stomached!
I could go on, but I hope that's a start ...
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