Monday 11 February 2008

The atheists' take on science: a problem

There's nothing like a good book to expand knowledge, awareness and ways of looking at things. I've started reading 'Philosophy of Science', the original 1986 title of the book 'Science and its limits' by Del Ratzch. I'd recommended it to Jonathan on the Musings blog, see top right, and he posted a rather different take on it. It's an overview, 165pp long, and one of a series called 'Contours of Christian Philosophy'. That might turn off some readers before even opening it, which would be a shame, because core sections present a clear informative account of ways of understanding the nature, role and scope of science as they have developed over the centuries.
Chapter 1, Science: What is it?, outlines its basic aspects and presuppositions. The italicised words give a flavour: natural science, discipline, theoretical, natural explanations, empirical, objectivity, rational...
Chapter 2, The Traditional Conception of Science, outlines first the 'Baconian conception'. Next, rationality, sub-divided into prediction, covering-law model of explanation, hypothetico-deductive testing (in which concepts including proof, experiment, hypotheses, deduction and logic are summarised). Then the empirical element, and objectivity, where the role of the scientific community is briefly addressed. Followed by some initial implications.

It proceeds to examine 'Positivism: a Major School in the Traditional View', and its position on the empirical, rationality and objectivity. This is where, in light of the current debate with atheists, things start to get interesting. On the empirical, DR notes that British philosopher John Locke, was so impressed by the accomplishments of Newton, which he perceived as:

'having banned the nonempirical from science... that he thought that if restricting science to the purely empirical had proved to be the ultimate key to scientific knowledge (and who could doubt that?) then that restriction must be the key to other knowledge as well... the genesis of modern empiricism, the doctrine (note) that all concepts, ideas and substantive knowledge available to human beings must ultimately rest solely on experience - in particular, on sensory experience and observation. The implication of that doctrine (forcefully advocated by David Hume) was that any alleged idea or belief which did not have that empirical grounding was really empty and quite literally meaningless', p33.

When I read that, I thought heavens, this is starting to sound familiar.

I won't be spending much more blog time outlining and quoting another author's thoughts so extensively, but I've done so here in the hope of engaging my atheist readers in a level of reading and discussion we can all take seriously. Hopefully around a book like this, or of similar quality. DR goes on to outline the implications and decline of positivism, delineating the flaws that made it 'increasingly clear that the positivist outlook was bankrupt as a philosophy of science, and ultimately incoherent as well', p36. A brief look at the decline of the traditional view of science closes chapter 2. There are seven more chapters to go.

This isn't half as entertaining as reading in 'The God Delusion' about belief in God being comparable to belief in fairies, unicorns, an orbiting chocolate teapot and an imaginary friend called Binker. But golly, the science looks more serious.

52 comments:

Anonymous said...

'having banned the nonempirical from science... that he thought that if restricting science to the purely empirical had proved to be the ultimate key to scientific knowledge (and who could doubt that?) then that restriction must be the key to other knowledge as well... the genesis of modern empiricism, the doctrine (note) that all concepts, ideas and substantive knowledge available to human beings must ultimately rest solely on experience - in particular, on sensory experience and observation. The implication of that doctrine (forcefully advocated by David Hume) was that any alleged idea or belief which did not have that empirical grounding was really empty and quite literally meaningless', p33.


Justify!

Empirical evidence forms part of a self supporting testable process that shows it's validity through fulfilling predictions.

How does this mean there is a supernatural realm?

Jonathan said...

"The implication of that doctrine (forcefully advocated by David Hume) was that any alleged idea or belief which did not have that empirical grounding was really empty and quite literally meaningless', p33.

When I read that, I thought heavens, this is starting to sound familiar".

Now, now, Bruce. I don't think any of us have described such ideas as empty or meaningless. I certainly wouldn't describe my scientific outlook of being out-and-out positivism; although I will admit that there are elements of positivism within it, just as there are other viewpoints.

Don't have the book in front of me right now, so apologies for being a little vague.

The really interesting chapters come later. If you have the original 1986 title, does that mean your copy is missing the chapter on Intelligent Design?

Anonymous said...

Jonathan, does it say that intelligent design is science?

Jonathan said...

Billy-

"does it say that intelligent design is science?"

The book is fairly neutral about it. I get the impression that the author disapproves of it, but can't say as much given the probable audience for his book!

Anonymous said...

I was about to write something but then noticed that "we" atheists all picked on the same comment from Bruce.

I will wait to see where it takes us, no need to repeat ourselves.

Lee

Anonymous said...

Jonathan wrote about ID and the book:
I get the impression that the author disapproves of it, but can't say as much given the probable audience for his book!

Should not every theist be against ID? It doesn’t help any holy book does it – it is merely being used as a means to get evolution out of the classroom (or at least to cause confusion within it.)

A different debate for another thread.

Bruce wrote in the original comment
This is where, in light of the current debate with atheists, things start to get interesting.

Excellent… interesting is good.

that he thought that if restricting science to the purely empirical had proved to be the ultimate key to scientific knowledge

Seems to be a useful idea… science is what you can measure (I think I said that before?)

The implication of that doctrine (forcefully advocated by David Hume) was that any alleged idea or belief which did not have that empirical grounding was really empty and quite literally meaningless

Have you any opinions on this Bruce?

I would not say “meaningless” merely outside science and therefore “untestable”.

We therefore should be careful in what we believe – can you agree to that?

What I have said, repeatedly, is that the claims from the theist that God interacts with mankind and the universe are testable by science.
(Are you bored of me saying this yet Bruce, you have not tackled the problem head-on)

The fact that no positive evidence for any such interaction from God has been observed leaves me to doubt both these testable claims from the theist, but more importantly doubt the “untestable” ones with reason.

If you extrapolate this to say such beliefs in God are “empty and quite literally meaningless” that is your own doing, not mine.

I wish to remain neutral on such matters – it could be argued that belief in God has benefits to the person; it does NOT mean that this idea of God is true, that He exists and the claims in the holy book are true.

When I read that, I thought heavens, this is starting to sound familiar.

Spooky!!!

I've done so here in the hope of engaging my atheist readers in a level of reading and discussion we can all take seriously

I read and discussed serious stuff… I read TDD on the cheap if you have not noticed – any response to my comments on the first 2 chapters? Is it worth reading any more?

Hopefully around a book like this, or of similar quality.

Jonathan has reviewed this book already and it gives me no reason to invest money in it – the quality of this book therefore has already been challenged.

However, since you now own the book – feel free to quote arguments and thoughts from it that might “test us atheists” – I’m more than happy to read your posts and get involved in a challenging discussion.

If you could provide such a strong argument from this book, I will consider buying it – until then I have no faith in it.

Lee

Anonymous said...

Taking it simple - the heading:
The atheists' take on science: a problem

What is the problem then please for the atheist?

For the theist I see many, the fact nothing has been seen by science for the interactions from God is the main point I would make.

Lee

Anonymous said...

Seems to be a useful idea… science is what you can measure (I think I said that before?)


On more than one occasion! Would the christians please take note!
Some christians like Michael Behe want to redefine science to include things like astrology. It's like they think that if they can shift the meaning so much, they can then claim that faith is scientific and majically make it apear more rational to the uneducated. It is however dishonest in te extreme.

What I have said, repeatedly, is that the claims from the theist that God interacts with mankind and the universe are testable by science.

Yep. To digress, I read this a while back.

On March 7, I was due to go and see mydoctor about some tests on the ARVS I am taking for the HIV virus. When Iwas diagnosed, they told me that if I had waited for two more months I wasgoing to be in intensive care. They put me on ARVS for approximatelythree months and my next appointment was on March 7. This time I wasgoing to see the doctor on my own and I was very nervous. Just before Ileft the house I connected to the internet to check my Yahoo! account and thenI found in my in box the following title from you:
“Jesus Heals Woman of AIDS! Watch Patricia King Now!”


I could not resist but to watch this video. I watched all of it including the bit on prayer. This wasdefinitely a divine appointment. After watching this video, I had so muchpeace and drove to the hospital. I was even praising God as I went. Theydid the tests for my CD4 and Viral Load. The results came on Friday thatthe virus was undetectable and that my CD4 was now 270 (was 157 before). Praise be to God in the highest … He hashealed me!

http://www.extremeprophetic.com/testimoniesitem
.php?art=435&c=0&id=15&style=

It totally disgusts me that this person thinks they are cured. The CD4 count is still low. It vatries from time to time, and it is well documented that viral levels can become undetectable, only to re-appear again. Think of the terrible possibilities.

Anonymous said...

Interesting I read a copy of aids inc. a while back. Rappoport reckons hiv is a symptom of AIDS and not a cause. Plenty of people with HIV who dont develop AIDS. Most alarming thing is no. of people with AIDS who dont have HIV.
I know one clinician who believes a diagnosis killed his patient.


So then power of suggestion seems to work both ways - a person can be convinced they are going to live or die !

Bruce said...

Hey Rob, I haven't re-found my FB entry details yet to reply to your message. Can you post me your email and number here? (they won't appear on the blog). My Bradford interview's tomorrow 1pm, up and down from Glasgow in the day. Cheers for now.

Anonymous said...

Rappoport reckons hiv is a symptom of AIDS and not a cause.

Was he the one who was challenged to infect himself to prove his point?
I think it is beyond reasonable doubt that HIV is the cause.

In any population, there are resistant individuals, and the bigger the population, the more likely they are. That is how the HIV co-receptor was found. It is also why Myximatosis did not eradicate rabbits

Bruce said...

In Bradford for interview tomorrow.
J, my version of the book doesn't have the ID chapter. Lee, thanks for the net reading suggestions on RD and AM. Philip, as a newcomer to my blog I'll get back to your qs first, and later others.
Everyone, thanks for your comments and interest in the discussion. Talk to you soon.

Anonymous said...

Just found this little comment on a “blog” talking about “How Quantum Mechanics is Compatible with Free Will” (Don’t ask… blame Brian’s blog)

Anyway, one of the comments on this site discussed evolution not weeding out falsehoods

Sounded interesting, so I thought I would share it.

humans are predisposed to believe falsehoods about gods that watch over us. (Proving this is trivial: most humans have such belief; most such beliefs are incompatible with the others; at most, one compatible set can be true; therefore, the other belief sets are false

Has this chap just shown the natural origin of beliefs in gods (no meme included)?

Sounds too easy, hence the sharing the thought

Lee
PS
We have two treads talking about TDD and I do not know which one I last posted on due to moderation - oh well, sorry is all I can say.

Anonymous said...

Yes Brian's blog is challenging. I disagree with a lot that coathangrrr says, but he does ask some very penetrating questions - checked out his blog. He is not a theist.
Unfortunately I dont have enough time to get involved over there.

Bruce said...

Lee, thanks for your ideas about taking forward the discussion re TGD and TDD. I will follow them up
in due course, and as far as I can, earlier comments in general.

I'm reading Chapter 3 of the book of this post, titled 'Philosophy of Science in the sixties: Kuhn and Beyond'. I'm learning a lot. Kuhnian's ideas are also called 'post empiricist'. He had a wholistic theory of perception and meaning, and one of his key ideas is scientific paradigms (theoretical frameworks for viewing reality), and how the paradigm you hold affects your perceptions and the meanings you attach to terms.

One quote for a flavour:
'according to Kuhn there is no complete, logical procedure for paradigm shifts...there will almost always be a range of positions with respect to paradigm choices, theory choices or other scientific disputes, all of which will be rational. The character of those decisions as, in part, value-decisions will guarantee that latitude.' p53, 54.

These chapters, as J noted, are serious, intelligent, informed factual discourse. I wonder if my readers are aware of Kuhn's thought, other issues in the philosophy of science, and have considered how these issues might impinge on their view of science? In his own review, Jonathan didn't to my memory comment at all on the possible implications of these kind of basic ideas on our views of science.

This is an open q. One of my chief objections of late has been how the debate has been largely confined to the parameters of thinking about science itself (not just its relation to religion) that Billy and Lee in particular have set. That's not to get at you both, I know you value science and are v interested in it. But I want to open things up, and see to what extent the best external thinking about science has been engaged with. Because frankly, I'm only interested in discussion to the extent that I can see it has been.

And thanks to those who've asked how my interview went. Went well I'm happy to report, and I got the radio producer post. So a move to Bradford looks imminent, though it'll be a few weeks.

You do realise that, for all my earlier diplomatic talk about producing spiritually engaging programmes (which is certainly true), I will ultimately be in the business of encouraging people to consider a lifelong relationship and commitment to the Lord Jesus Christ?
I'm slightly surprised not yet to have seen hide nor hair of a specially dispatched masked assassin. But I guess it's early days:)

Anonymous said...

Bruce, if I remember correctly Kuhn believed in paragigm shifts - everheard of the shift from creationism to evolution?

So, what is your point? What part of Kuhn do you think is relevant to you?

Science deals in measurables - please comment on this. We are getting frustared at you ignoring this and being incredibly vague about your personal views

Jonathan said...

"In his own review, Jonathan didn't to my memory comment at all on the possible implications of these kind of basic ideas on our views of science".

As I've just commented on Musings, my review was more angled towards the discussion of science's limits. When you get to the chapter about "the modern view" of science, you'll see that these separate ideas have influenced it. I thnk that the view of science Billy, Lee and I hold is pretty close to the modern view as he defines it.

"I'm slightly surprised not yet to have seen hide nor hair of a specially dispatched masked assassin".

Poor naive Bruce. You wouldn't see the assassin coming. In any case, it's more likely that the divine Quetzalcoatl will simply strike you down. Or prevent you from getting the job, whichever's easier. :-)

Anonymous said...

'according to Kuhn there is no complete, logical procedure for paradigm shifts...there will almost always be a range of positions with respect to paradigm choices, theory choices or other scientific disputes, all of which will be rational. The character of those decisions as, in part, value-decisions will guarantee that latitude.' p53, 54.


Spot the fallacy - argument from authority.
This is also untrue - as in evolution vs creationism. The reason to choose - evidence, fulfilled predictions and lack of falsification. If something comes along that does a better job of explanation, then evolution will be replaced.
How is this not a rational justification?

What point are you trying to make anyway? You have not stated it?

Anonymous said...

Congratulations on the job! Sounds like a "braw job". And Bradford huh ? The city of the curry house and the Subaru Imprezza? Gareth Gates and Dennis Healey?. Will we get to see you on the telly, like ? Exciting...

Rob Penman

Anonymous said...

Hi Bruce

I'm reading Chapter 3 of the book of this post

Oops... sorry, I've post comments on TDD on the wrote thread.

Erm... all I can say it shows I am posting nonsense on too many blogs.

And thanks to those who've asked how my interview went. Went well I'm happy to report, and I got the radio producer post.

Well Done!

So a move to Bradford looks imminent

Please accept my condolences.

Just remember to boil the water.

Lee

Anonymous said...

Hi Bruce,

Did you say you missed by point by point break down of your comments?

Here you go then…

I'm reading Chapter 3 of the book of this post, titled 'Philosophy of Science in the sixties:

1960’s – I’ve heard about such times while reading history books.

Nothing like being modern and up to date then…

Kuhnian's ideas are also called 'post empiricist'. He had a wholistic theory of perception and meaning, and one of his key ideas is scientific paradigms (theoretical frameworks for viewing reality), and how the paradigm you hold affects your perceptions and the meanings you attach to terms.

Oh goodie… this is getting like Brian’s blog and all philosophical… like it.

Only just started to hear the name “Kuhn” I have to admit – why is that?

One last thing.

What is a “wholistic theory of perception and meaning” and where can I buy a machine to measure it?
(Is it the machine that goes PING!!! – very expensive those machines…)

One quote for a flavour:
'according to Kuhn there is no complete, logical procedure for paradigm shifts...there will almost always be a range of positions with respect to paradigm choices, theory choices or other scientific disputes, all of which will be rational. The character of those decisions as, in part, value-decisions will guarantee that latitude.' p53, 54.


What is this saying to you Bruce? Can you put it into your own words?

I wonder if my readers are aware of Kuhn's thought, other issues in the philosophy of science, and have considered how these issues might impinge on their view of science?

I don’t know all the Noble prize winners in Physics either – sorry, it was not part of my degree that so what is your point again?

Please tell me about these “issues might impinge on their view of science” – especial any key points with regards to measurements within science and their importance.

I understand that how we interpret the data could be influenced by current ideas – but I do not see how this affects the non-measurement of any interactions from a theistic god precisely.

In his own review, Jonathan didn't to my memory comment at all on the possible implications of these kind of basic ideas on our views of science.

I recall Jonathan stating that he found this part of the book interesting when discussing the philosophy of science – of course, in a review, not every topic would have been mentioned. That is for the discussion that follows.

Care to discuss?

One of my chief objections of late has been how the debate has been largely confined to the parameters of thinking about science itself (not just its relation to religion) that Billy and Lee in particular have set.

I’m sorry Bruce my “parameters of thinking about science”?

You have been reading too much philosophy of science, and not doing enough science my friend.

I don’t actually know what you mean – could you please rephrase for my simple scientific mind?

As for our discussions about science, I have kept the definition of science very simple (probably too simple).

“Science is what you can measure – if you cannot measure it, it is not science but something else”

Have you read anything so far that challenges this definition?

The point I have been making is this:
science is very good at measuring the physical – and any interaction from God must be physical for mankind to notice. If mankind can notice it, science can test it.

Do agree or disagree with this point?

Please give an opinion, I do not mind if you place caveats on your reply. Just give us something to discuss and debate.

If you think God interacts in “unphysical” ways with mankind by man still notices then no problem.

Just tell me why (not how) you think the human body could detect these “unphysical” interactions and I will be happy.

Also, even IF the human body could detect the “unphysical” interactions from God – this does not stop science testing the physical human body and how it reacts. I mean, if you claim man can notice these interactions if they are of any “benefit” what so ever – they can be tested by science.

So I really do not see how you can make a claim God interacts and it is NOT testable by science.

Is this why you are avoiding the question?

That's not to get at you both, I know you value science and are v interested in it.

I wouldn’t think you were “getting at me”, you should know me by now, but you should also value science highly. The modern world we live in is a result of it.

But I want to open things up

No problem… just do not try and redefine science without references and sources to justify your position (not saying that you have – just that I am paying close attention).

and see to what extent the best external thinking about science has been engaged with.

Again, I have no idea what you are talking about…

Today very poor must be my English
(I’m sorry).

“external thinking”? Do you mean people who are not “in” science?

Because frankly, I'm only interested in discussion to the extent that I can see it has been.

You’ve lost me again… I need more tea.

And thanks to those who've asked how my interview went. Went well I'm happy to report, and I got the radio producer post. So a move to Bradford looks imminent, though it'll be a few weeks.

Already said well done… 3 times now I think.

I will ultimately be in the business of encouraging people to consider a lifelong relationship and commitment to the Lord Jesus Christ?

Why?

Wouldn’t the relationship be a little one-sided?

You cannot have a relationship with a wall for example?

So how can you have relationship with anything that does not respond in a physical way?

If you want a “non-physical” relationship you might as well talk to the wall unless of course you have any evidence that the human body can detect “non-physical” interactions?

I'm slightly surprised not yet to have seen hide nor hair of a specially dispatched masked assassin. But I guess it's early days:)

You moving to Bradford… “they” can wait.

Lee
PS
Why would any masked assassin be after you?

Anonymous said...

Congratulations Bruce!

Bruce said...

I was away at the weekend - staying at Newtonmore, cycled from there to Aviemore (not very far). Sorry about the comments, which I've just published. They didn't appear in my email, possibly because my old receiving address may now have expired. I've changed settings, so they should now appear at my new email.
I'll be doing my best to respond.
The Benevolent Moderator.

Anonymous said...

Was there much snow left at newtonmore? It was thigh deep a fortnight ago

Bruce said...

Pretty patchy. Nice street light decorations though - looks like they have Christmas all year round.

Anonymous said...

Intellectual relationships exist on a non-physical level; are they therefore unreal or insignificant? Auden's opinion of the four necessary human relationships "to love, to be loved, to be a teacher, to be pupil" indicate (at of course a far less significant level) what man's relationship with God can be like.

Anonymous said...

Ryan,

Why?

There is also a physical interaction in your examples

Anonymous said...

Billy wrote:
Yes Brian's blog is challenging. I disagree with a lot that coathangrrr says, but he does ask some very penetrating questions - checked out his blog. He is not a theist.

I didn’t think coathangrrr was a theist, merely a philosopher playing devil’s advocate sometimes but it’s good to keep my logic focused. At least when coathangrrr tells me I’m wrong it is not because of some blind faith position taught to them as a child..

Still, I think s/ he is wrong placing too much faith in philosophy. Funny really – the same is said of me and evidence.

Unfortunately I dont have enough time to get involved over there.

While it is quiet at work I have time… but things look like they will be picking up soon here.

Lee

Anonymous said...

I didn’t think coathangrrr was a theist,

No, coathangrr is not a theist. I just think sometimes philosophy can get in the way of investigation - all you have to do is question reality, but supply no alternative that you can verify. A bit like theology really

Bruce said...

Just to say, don't think just because I'm silent for a while that I've lost interest or won't eventually respond. I've other stuff to deal with, and also need to go back and digest and ponder earlier comments, and marshal my thoughts. I feel like an Ent in this comment forum (those slow tree creatures in Lord of the Rings for anyone who just went 'uh?')

Anonymous said...

just because I'm silent for a while that I've lost interest

Yeah, I was begining to think you were god :-)

Jonathan said...

Okay, Treebeard.

Jonathan said...

Bruce-

here's a link to an article on the RD site, reviewing several books reviewing the God Delusion, including Alastair McGrath's book.

http://richarddawkins.net/article,2285,Fleabytes,Paula-Kirby

Anonymous said...

Billy wrote:
I just think sometimes philosophy can get in the way of investigation - all you have to do is question reality, but supply no alternative that you can verify. A bit like theology really

If you don't test your ideas, you can think whatever you like...

philosophy has been wrong many times before. Though one improvement on theology though is they can change their ideas - the problem is some people still quote old and dead philosophy ideas - ignoring what they do not like. (Erm... so it could be a religion for some?)

Lee

Anonymous said...

here's a link to an article on the RD site, reviewing several books reviewing the God Delusion, including Alastair McGrath's book.


Yes, that gives specific references to some of the lies that are often spread about what Dawkins says. I thouroughly recommend it.

Anonymous said...

PS, maybe you could try and defend McGrath on that thread.
Note how often terms like "no substance" come up

Anonymous said...

Has this debate died before it really started? It's the same on the McGrath thread.

Come on Bruce - throw a few crumbs.

Lee

Jonathan said...

Indeed, and there's also a post up on my blog about Hell that you haven't yet commented on. Would appreciate your opinions on it.

Jonathan said...

Bruce-

when will the next post on "Science and its limits" be up?

Bruce said...

Soon I hope - and I'll try not to make that too close to 'soon' as the Lord understands it ie 'in His sight, a day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years are as a day' or words to that effect, from a psalm in the other Good Book.

I'm working my way thru it a couple of pps a day. All excellent so far on giving a clear understanding of how science and the philosophy of such has developed; believe me philosophy of science sceptics, this stuff impinges very pertinently on your views of science, and by extension potentially on religion too. Just finished Chapter 5.

It's a short book and I can fully predict how its latter 'Christian perspective' chapters may have raised all kinds of qs (which no doubt require FURTHER EXPLORATION I'd venture to suggest). But let me just say that with the quality of thought in it so far, the memory of one of Jonathan's commentators saying it sounded 'pretty crappy' from J's review, cd get me pretty wound up if I let it. (it was Brian I recall, if anyone wants to tell him before I do!)

Anonymous said...

Hi Bruce,

I've replied to you comment over at Jonathan's blog on the thread "Atheism And Me"

Really, I think it should be done here.

Feel free to cut and paste the comments to here so we can have them in one place.

Cheers

Lee

Bruce said...

I asked university physicist Peter Bussey for a very brief response to this book:

'My reaction was that philosophically it was very good and made some very valuable points.
But he is not a scientist and somewhat underestimated the capability of science to do things.
Scientists do really try rather hard to understand their
apparatus, and his claim that there are all sorts of uncertainties in relating theory to experiment really needed a few hard basic examples to pin down where he
felt the weaknesses really lie.'

I am aware this doesn't address Jonathan's key objections about the latter chapters, but as I've said, they are more clearly addressed to
Christians who share his presuppositions. For a more rigorous examination of those, you'd need to investigate further - and I'll do what I can to contribute to that.

Anonymous said...

am aware this doesn't address Jonathan's key objections about the latter chapters, but as I've said, they are more clearly addressed to
Christians who share his presuppositions.


So why recommend it to atheists? This is a very big problem about pre-suppositions - they take what he believes as a given and therefore add nothing to understanding

Bruce said...

I think the book is still well worth a look at for atheists like yourself Billy for chapters 5, 6 and in particular 7. I don't expect you by any means to be convinced - apart from anything else there has always seemed to be far more going on and at stake in this discussion than mere intellectual reasoning - but for someone so hungry for debate, I'd have thought these chapters would be of interest to you and at least give you something to think about.

Anonymous said...

Bruce, I can't debate a book!

Anonymous said...

Bruce,

Peter's review was not exactly glowing. Out of interest, do you put more value in his review or Jonathan's? They both say some of the same things.

Anonymous said...

Bruce wrote
I asked university physicist Peter Bussey for a very brief response to this book:

Lee BSc(Hons) - Physics with Astrophysics - responds:-

Why do you feel we need Peter’s title? You are not trying to make an argument from authority are you?

It seems though that Peter is not a fan of the science in the book?

[the author’s] claim that there are all sorts of uncertainties in relating theory to experiment really needed a few hard basic examples to pin down where he
felt the weaknesses really lie.


So the book is lacking and unable to back up its claims against science? So what is the point of the book again?

As Peter says ”he is not a scientist and somewhat underestimated the capability of science to do things”

On this topic, what does theology “do” – where has it added any advancements to medicine for example? Or maybe any advancements in technologies you care to mention? Or any useful advancement in the real world would be nice?

University biologist Billy PhD wrote:
So why recommend it to atheists? This is a very big problem about pre-suppositions - they take what he believes as a given and therefore add nothing to understanding

I agree.

Don’t worry though Bruce – I’ve still got my philosophy of science book to read (taking your advice to widen my reading) – I just got distracted and read the latest Terry Pratchett book instead, this always happens to me – fiction is always easier to read.

Lee
BSc(Hons) - Physics with Astrophysics

Did I mention I had a degree in physics? Does it give my arguments more authority when I talk about philosophy and religion? Erm… Nope.

Anonymous said...

Did I mention I had a degree in physics? Does it give my arguments more authority when I talk about philosophy and religion?

Yes it does.

Dr Billy BSc (Hons) PhD

PS, I should know, I'm 6 foot tall with a PhD, so that makes me both big and clever - a nobel laureate once said so!

PPS, your atheism also qualifies you to talk with authority on atheism

Anonymous said...

Hi Dr Billy BSc (Hons) PhD,

RE: Does it give my arguments more authority when I talk about philosophy and religion?

Yes it does.

I will listen to you because you have so many letters after your name.

your atheism also qualifies you to talk with authority on atheism

I getting the idea now…

+++++

Hi Bruce,

Hope you didn’t mind my little joke – but you must realise that it is the strength of the argument and evidence that matters – not the title of the person saying it. This is why science works…

Lee

Anonymous said...

Is this debate dead?

So many debates are dieing lately... I may have to start arguing with myself.

Lee

Bruce said...

Hi Lee, I'm happy to continue a conversation and will raise points as seems fit here and on J's blog, but I'm afraid I won't be able to carry on a debate at the rate you might like. I plan to comment again on J's blog later today.

Anonymous said...

Hi Bruce,

I'm happy to continue a conversation and will raise points as seems fit here and on J's blog

Excellent stuff – please raise any attacks against my argument you like. I love the challenge – I could be wrong and the only way I will find out is if I am challenged.
(Just use less of the common logical fallacies – I gave a link on them when you asked about the definition of a straw man if that helps)

but I'm afraid I won't be able to carry on a debate at the rate you might like.

I don’t mind you taking your time responding (I wander onto other blogs to get my fix).

You could, if you like, take several days (or weeks) to response for all I care – so long as the response was to my questions and any attacks were against my argument.

I may respond within hours, days or weeks myself. I’m in no rush.

A good debate is worth waiting for after all.

In the “early days” of our discussions you did just that – a good debate and challenged the points directly – but now it is seems merely the logical fallacies, mainly the argument from authority or attacking the person and not the argument.

I don’t know if you are doing this because time is short for you and you are not thinking about it much, or the questions have become more of a challenge.

You tell me.

I plan to comment again on J's blog later today

Be there, done that… come on Bruce, I remember the good old days of debate and discussion.

Lee