Sadly I haven't yet been able to catch up with all the comments on the last post yet, but with a new month dawning and at the risk of looking a fool (for Christ:)), I just want to articulate a little more - particularly for the benefit of atheist readers - how I see the life of faith. I want to widen the camera angle again for a moment.
Atheists have - quite rightly - a high degree of interest in reason and evidence, and how truth claims match up to these. And from what I've read, they often seem to have a pretty low opinion of how religion squares up on these fronts. Let me just clarify, in case there is any doubt, that as I understand it from my reading and investigation about faith and Christianity in particular: defences of the faith also put a very high premium on these criteria, of reasonableness and evidence. So there's plainly a sharp disagreement here.
There's a big discussion to be had about the nature and status of 'evidence'. But just to sketch one of the most obvious broad brush contrasts between the sceptical view, and the faith one. Sceptics are looking for 'evidence' that is tangible and unmistakable to any neutral observer, but within a framework of quite narrowly defined criteria, similar to criteria for observing physical phenomena in a scientific experiment. The common cry is 'Prove it', 'Give me evidence'. By contrast, my impression is that the lens employed in Christian apologetics to discuss the validity of faith from a perspective of reason and evidence, is generally wider. A broader exploration is attempted of how reason and faith operate in real life, in a variety of areas. And a broad criticism that would be levelled at the sceptical viewpoint from this perspective is that it doesn't consistently apply the same principles it uses to attack faith, in other broad areas of thought and life. It strains gnats but swallows camels, to quote, if you don't mind me doing so, er, Jesus.
But here is where the heart comes in. A good defence of Christianity will show the value but also the limitations of reason in attaining truth in its broadest senses. It will show how reason and the evidence that is there leads, invites, beckons, not by proof but with intellectual integrity intact, to the threshold of faith. The heart matters here; there has to be an open-ness. But if that threshold is crossed, like Lucy stepping into the wardrobe, then a whole new world is unveiled. Life and perspective can be changed, perhaps slowly, perhaps suddenly; like the life blood in a butterfly's wings transforming it from grey chrysalis to a vision of light and beauty, or the wind in a surfer's sail lifting the board and sending it coursing across the waves. A step is taken; power, energy, life and motion are released.
Last week my three year old niece and her parents were up to stay. At one point, when we were swinging her or something, her mum said, 'They're so trusting'. A child's instinct to trust becomes in an adult so easily stifled and withered, instead of growing and developing alongside the - no denying it, crucial - capacities to reason, question and critique. Trust opens up experience, and indeed knowledge and revelation that are unattainable without it. It's quite possible to think people with faith are deluded if you want to. But I'd say that sceptics need to consider carefully, with a wide angle lens, if the phenomenon of religious faith in the world, which embraces many sane, thinking people, really falls into the same kind of category as belief in unicorns, fairies and the like. The more dare I say it 'scientific' approach in dealing with a large phenomena of this kind is to explore and examine it first from as many angles, and in as much depth, as possible.
Who knows where that might lead?
Tuesday, 1 April 2008
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Bruce-
"defences of the faith also put a very high premium on these criteria, of reasonableness and evidence".
Examples? It may seem that way, but often when the evidence is examined and found wanting, the believer will fall back on faith as an explanation.
"So there's plainly a sharp disagreement here".
Yes, there is. Atheists look at the evidence and think "What does this tell us?" Religious people often (but not all the time) look at the evidence and think "How does this fit in with my religious beliefs?" It is a critical difference.
"There's a big discussion to be had about the nature and status of 'evidence'"
Indeed! And this links in rather neatly to chapter 7 of Science and its limits, don't you think? The opportunity for discussion is there in that post, which is now a month old.
"A broader exploration is attempted of how reason and faith operate in real life, in a variety of areas".
Yet another variation on your idea that atheists are not prepared to appraise things openly and widely. Since I've rebutted this mnay, many times before, I won't repeat myself!
"And a broad criticism that would be levelled at the sceptical viewpoint from this perspective is that it doesn't consistently apply the same principles it uses to attack faith, in other broad areas of thought and life".
Give us examples!!! How are we supposed to respond to this attack if you talk in such generalities? You could be talking about anything here.
"A good defence of Christianity will show the value but also the limitations of reason in attaining truth in its broadest senses".
Clearly we disagree on the definition of "good defence". :-)
"The heart matters here; there has to be an open-ness"
Sigh. See my earlier comment.
"Trust opens up experience, and indeed knowledge and revelation that are unattainable without it".
So you have to blindly trust that something is there to find out if it actually is there.
"The more dare I say it 'scientific' approach in dealing with a large phenomena of this kind is to explore and examine it first from as many angles, and in as much depth, as possible".
Okay. Perhaps one might first try and assess exactly how prevalent religious belief would be if children were NOT taught about it from an early age.
I can't help but feel that you've said a lot of this before, Bruce, but never gone into detail.
Look forward to your upcoming response on Science and its limits: chapter 7.
A half hearted response today due to illness.
Bruce, you seem to want to change the nature of evidence. You should really be validating your paradigm.
You keep mentioning we want tangable evidence, but you have not demonstrated that there is any other kind. Healing would be tangable, so where are all the healed amputees. When this is brought up you move the goal posts without backing it up. You use circular logic that your particular theology is right, but you never demonstrate that it is right. That is a pre-requisite before you can do anything.
A good defence of Christianity will show the value but also the limitations of reason in attaining truth in its broadest senses
Which is much more of a problem for the proposer (YOU) Attacking other forms of knowledge in no way validates your case. This is a common mistake to make. What colour table does your computer rest on? Look more carefully at the bright spots and answer again. Now look from a different angla and answer again. So, there are problems associated in labelling your table a different colour, but how does that validate any other position? Do you see the problem?
All a personal experience does is confirm you had an experience. It does not mean god was behind it. Choose a personal experience and try an see if you can link it to god - if you want to go dow the problem in aquiring knowledge route, you are screwed from the start - remember, the burden of all validations lie solely on you!
And wot Jonthan said!
PS, Pray my cold has gone by tomorrow - I can hear the excuse factory cranking into gear.....
Bruce
When it comes to expressing or explaining faith I think there is a good case for presenting the gospel in the simplest terms possible then leaving the rest to prayer and to God.
If someone cannot see evidence of God then I cannot make them see, only God can open their eyes to cause them to see him.
To me it appears I can help in two ways by prayer and by presenting the simplicity of the gospel.
This bread cast upon the waters
to me anyway seems more important than endless debate.
I sometimes think of this verse
"My word will not return to me void"
Ecclesiastes 11:1
Isaiah 55:11
Bruce, I would like to take this opportunity to tell you that your prayer for my cold worked.
Unfortunately I cant, I a one big puss filled plague factory at the moment.
Jimmy,
How do you reconcile that both Jonathan and I have prayed (as believers) and no longer believe with your comment on prayer?
Thanks for your comments, which I've now read.
I didn't understand your point about the table Billy; can you clarify?
Jimmy, your perspective here is indeed true and important and one I hold too. I hope atheist contributors won't mind me saying that I also pray, for them and for us all! And that the practice of prayer doesn't preclude having one's own qs and sometimes doubts in the journey of faith.
Billy, I am praying that you will get well, I don't mind admitting that. A Christian seeks to soak all of life in prayer; it's a vital part of this way of life - I liked Rob's expression 'the slipstream of Christian theism' - but it's a context in which the gifts of medicine etc should be allowed to operate. But I don't suppose there's any danger of you forgoing your lemsip, or other drug of choice.
Jonathan, a little more of my own wide lens. Though I have an interest in this kind of discussion, it is simply not my prime calling in thought and writing to debate with atheists (who, I don't forget, are people first!). My prime interests are more in story, drama and my own personal reflections as a Christian. So any contribution I make will be in the broader spectrum of my sense of personal calling, with the priorities that entails. Sorry if this disappoints you, but - and here's a gauge of the strength and reality of faith in my own life - I feel accountable ultimately to the God I worship, not to you or anyone else.
I felt Chapter 7 was one that merited closer inspection; well done, you provided that. I did not promise to give a detailed response in your time and terms. I may well return to that post and others, various comments and qs including here too; but in the context and time frame of my own sense of call.
Meanwhile, here's a big picture challenge for you. You've already written a book. If you are convinced that what you think and have to say about faith are important and persuasive enough, why not take it to the next level and write a book about it or something. If what you have to say is valuable enough, in the broad context of the thought of great minds ancient and modern, and you write with enough clarity and imagination, then your book could become an enduring classic. Same to Billy. If not though, clearly the converse.
I know it's not your favourite trait of mine to refer to books, but in this 'big picture' way of thinking, the relevance of this approach becomes clear. Because unless you do engage with the very best thought of the views you oppose, and demonstrate your thinking is better, then in the long run the success of your enterprise will be severely curtailed.
Just a thought.
For a while now my move to Bradford ,and the other writing project I mentioned, will be my priorities. Cheers.
Hi Bruce,
The table comment shows the problems associated with systems of knowing. You may think for example that your table is brown - or what ever colour, but looking more deeply, it varies in tone and dependant on how the light hits it. You can say that there are problems associated with all forms of understanding, but that does not validate another paradigm. So ifyou want to go down the problems of understanding route, then it makes your position even less tenable because you are making a positive assertion on the existence of god that you cant validate. The atheistic position then becomes even simpler - there is no evidence for god (and I dont mean that in an imflammatory sense).
Still got the cold, but thanks for caring - My immune system will eventually deal with it though
Bruce-
"I did not promise to give a detailed response in your time and terms. I may well return to that post and others, various comments and qs including here too; but in the context and time frame of my own sense of call".
Perhaps you should have mentioned that before? It's been a month. But what you say is fair enough, I can't force you to respond if you don't feel called to. As long as you don't mind that I'll remind you about it from time to time.
"You've already written a book. If you are convinced that what you think and have to say about faith are important and persuasive enough, why not take it to the next level and write a book about it or something. If what you have to say is valuable enough, in the broad context of the thought of great minds ancient and modern, and you write with enough clarity and imagination, then your book could become an enduring classic".
I was a little bit confused by this. Is it your impression of me that I think that my thoughts are that great that they deserve to be written in a book? My blogging and my writing are two different things. My writing is all about sci-fi, where I get to use my over-active imagination. I'm certainly not arrogant enough to think that my thoughts on atheism and religion are revelatory.
Hi Bruce,
I must have written a couple of replies to this thread by now, but I keep getting interrupted at work so never finish it off.
So – now at home with half an hour to kill – lets see what we have… I see we “atheists” get a mention again. Hooray…
Glad you feel you can talk about faith, but if you “widen the camera angle” anymore, you might break it when the lens falls off and hits the floor.
Yes we atheist’s have a “high degree of interest in reason and evidence” – this is one of the many reasons why I don’t believe in alien landings, the loch ness monster and magical healing powers of crystals to name just a few…
I’m sure you will agree there is a lot of evidence for the examples I have given and I hope you also agree that it is rubbish and see no good reason or evidence to believe in the nonsense.
Can you see where I am going with this? I’ve said it many times before…
If you claim that Jesus was the Son of God and came back from the dead then to get people like me to believe it – you have to prove it.
Plain and simple – why is this wrong?
Do you just go around believing in loch ness monster because someone told you it was true? How about fairies at the bottom of the garden?
(Will you just believe anything, or does it have to be taught from an early age?)
It’s the same with God in my book… lack of evidence, no reason to believe.
However it is normally here you pullout the faith-card… the lack of evidence isn’t a problem for you, since you have faith.
But wait… this thread is a little different isn’t it?
You claim that Christian’s have evidence, merely that we “non-believers” don’t accept it.
Well, now you know why I mentioned the alien landings – many people as you know believe this AND THEY HAVE THE EVIDENCE TO PROVE IT– so they claim. Do YOU believe them? Why not?
I wonder though, since we are discussing faith – if you had evidence, would you need faith?
I say no – so I feel your claim that people have evidence for their faith is a bit of a joke… (but I suspect you will not laugh with me)
A Christian may put a “high premium” on evidence IF it supports their assumptions, but they will normally ignore the evidence (or lack of it) if and when required (resistance will be high at any rate).
I am not saying a Christian cannot change their assumptions when faced with good evidence (geocentric model of the solar system and flat Earth or just a couple of quick examples that come to mind – but what about the theory of evolution, you have never said?)
Well, my time is running out – DVD movie night and all that – “Beowulf and Grendel” tonight, so I will “bullet point” the rest of my comments for “brevity”
Sceptics are looking for 'evidence' that is tangible and unmistakable to any neutral observer
Is this wrong? If so, why?
The common cry is 'Prove it', 'Give me evidence'
Again, why is this wrong?
Do you want the drug manufacturers to prove their drugs work and are safe to use first – do you want to see their evidence first before you try? – Or do you just want to take the drug and hope it doesn’t kill you with some nasty side effect.
You see, your demands for evidence will not be that different to mine, but I apply it to everything I can.
What about you are your God? Any evidence it is the right one or that He exists?
Why is it wrong to ask for evidence? It should not be much to ask…
By contrast, my impression is that the lens employed in Christian apologetics to discuss the validity of faith from a perspective of reason and evidence, is generally wider
Back to the question of faith I’m afraid – with evidence, do you need faith?
Oh, and lets not forget my long unanswered question about the power of faith in finding the ”truth” – why do two people using faith get different conclusions? Something is wrong isn’t it?
And a broad criticism that would be levelled at the sceptical viewpoint from this perspective is that it doesn't consistently apply the same principles it uses to attack faith, in other broad areas of thought and life.
Right back at you – as I said before, why do you demand evidence from the drug manufacturers but not from your priest?
I feel am consistent in my demand for evidence, this is why I am a sceptic– so please give me examples where I have not been consistent in my demands for reason and evidence?
Remember, I have already given you an example of my “faith” in the sun rising tomorrow, and I do know the limits of science – so lets hear my inconsistencies – you may change me.
But here is where the heart comes in.
A muscle to pump the blood around the body? Shouldn’t you use your brain?
her mum said, 'They're so trusting'.
Yes – there is a reason for that I am sure (evolution?), it’s just a shame it can be so easily abused…
But I'd say that sceptics need to consider carefully, with a wide angle lens, if the phenomenon of religious faith in the world, which embraces many sane, thinking people, really falls into the same kind of category as belief in unicorns, fairies and the like.
How many millions thought killing Jews was a good idea in the 1940’s? An argument by numbers does not make it right.
A group delusion doesn’t change the fact it is a delusion.
Many people have looked up at the night sky and “saw” an alien invasion fleet… the more “educated” might call it the planet Venus instead – who knows.
OK… times up.
See ya
Lee
Lee
Good comment enjoyed reading it.
I would think what most people mean when referring to the heart as an instrument of comprehension is that the heart is analogously accepted as the seat of the human psyche.
You ask for evidence of God - again.
If you could present to me with evidence as to how the universe began and also evidence as to how life began from none life then I think we would both have evidence of God.
To say this is a God of the gaps theory is to me just a convenient way of dismissing it. As you don't know, it is not possible to be certain that it was not God.
In my life I have a pickford van load of evidence of God, I don't know where to put it all, I could do with more cupboard space to stop me having to keep moving it around the house all the time.
Jimmy
If you could present to me with evidence as to how the universe began and also evidence as to how life began from none life then I think we would both have evidence of God.
This statement makes no sense. Can you explain what you mean?
Also, we dont need to provide evidence how the universe started - you have to prove god did it. It is perfectly acceptable to say we dont know (although, I feel Lee might hit you with some physics soon). Not knowing does not mean it is not knowable and it certainly does not mean that god did it. So, where is your evidence - or do you think your current ignorance of cosmology or abiogenesis is actually a positive case for the existence of god. Do you deny god is constantly being removed from the gaps and that theories like gravity etc work without the need for god?
I am still waiting for a theist to demonstrate how the "heart" is a valid means of investigation.
I will clarify why I am getting off the bus - with Rob I suspect - of this discussion, soon. (In a word, because in its current form, it is fruitless and for me, time-wasting). Cheers :)
Billy
Saying "We don't know"
May be perfectly acceptable to you.
But I would not equate "not knowing"
with "knowing" there is no God.
Not knowing is - not knowing.
Not knowing about the "Heart" in human psychology surprises me, but I like to learn new things and I'm sure you do to.
Jimmy wrote:
Good comment enjoyed reading it.
Bloody ‘ell – are you talking about one of my comments?
Cheers…
I would think what most people mean when referring to the heart as an instrument of comprehension is that the heart is analogously accepted as the seat of the human psyche.
So if someone has a heart transplant, what does that mean for their “human psyche”?
It is the brain that does the thinking, tests prove it… so why say it is the heart?
Something is wrong... maybe it is just poetry or something :)
You ask for evidence of God - again.
Of course I did – unless you can tell me why I should believe in something without good evidence for it?
Do you believe in fairies, big foot, alien abductions, physic healing?
As I mentioned in my original comment, the believers in the above have evidence, just not very good – since I assume you do not believe in the nonsense do you?
Or do you believe in anything someone tells you?
A conman’s dream?
If you could present to me with evidence as to how the universe began and also evidence as to how life began from none life then I think we would both have evidence of God.
No – we would have evidence for how the universe began and how life began. Not your God.
Can you give me any reason why a supernatural being is required for any of your examples?
No… of course not. You merely pick on an unknown and give it as evidence for God – well, you have a problem.
To say this is a God of the gaps theory is to me just a convenient way of dismissing it.
Glad we can agree on something - you know this is a fallacy – the “god of the gaps” classic as you stated.
However you don’t seem to understand the problem you have – let me help you out a little bit.
Even IF it were found a god was required for the start of the universe or life – i.e. a supernatural explanation is required since the natural ones fail (NB: you have to show this BTW, since this is a big IF and why you have yourself a fallacy) it does NOT prove your God one little bit… maybe it was Woden, Zeus or Apollo.
Can you tell me why it couldn’t be any number of these gods listed?
You see, you have not got yourself any evidence FOR your claim. You should have before you expect others to believe it. Do you want to buy some magic beans from me? Very good beans, get yourself a golden egg and all that?
So , you are lacking any evidence for YOUR Christian God… simple as that.
So even if you could convince me to be a deist… (i.e. I might then claim god did start the universe and injected life as well) I would still need evidence FOR a theistic god since there are so many to chose from, and no reason to believe the bible is true in its claims – we have though many reasons to doubt it.
As you don't know, it is not possible to be certain that it was not God.
I’m all for uncertainty – but the probability is on my simple claim :)
In my life I have a pickford van load of evidence of God, I don't know where to put it all, I could do with more cupboard space to stop me having to keep moving it around the house all the time.
Then why don’t you share it with your new found friends on these blogs?
Share it, and we will evaluate it… as I said before, plenty of evidence for alien abductions and the like – just not very good.
Tell me why you reject the photographic evidence by intelligent people for alien fleets coming to Earth and their testimony (even from a former president of the US so it most be true right?)
A Muslim will tell me they have a truck load of evidence for their God and why Christianity is a fraud… should I believe their evidence over yours? Why not?
Lee
Hi Billy,
Also, we dont need to provide evidence how the universe started - you have to prove god did it. It is perfectly acceptable to say we dont know (although, I feel Lee might hit you with some physics soon).
Oh go on then… why not.
Firstly though, I don’t have much on the getting started bit – this is still up to debate, however many natural explanations have been given, just none have been proven yet.
(I’m liking the “unstable nothing” being “the cause” (though cause and effect before time existed doesn’t make any sense to me) and then quantum fluctuations kinda sorts out the rest. My head can handle this, which means it is probably wrong…)
However, back to my point, these many natural explanations are a problem in my book for anyone making a claim it HAS to be supernatural; the natural explanations “could” work, just that we cannot prove anyone yet.
But anyone making a supernatural claim first has to disprove the natural hypothesises first, show why they cannot work. Since by definition, the natural explanation are simpler.
OK – physics talk then to give Jimmy (or anyone) a chance to show me where I am wrong – I’m happy to learn where I am wrong, so feel free to tell me – I would hate believing in something not true.
So, we “all know” physics doesn’t have a complete picture until quantum mechanics and gravity can be formulated together – however modern physics can give a pretty good explanation for the last 13.7 billion years, right back to about a Planck second after the universe begin.
It is at this point when gravity is thought to have “separated” from the other 3 forces (symmetry breaking). It is also at the very limit of current theories
A planck second around 10^-43 seconds…
So between 0 seconds, the start of the universe and 0.0000000000000000000000000000000000000000001 seconds after is a little unclear to the physicist.
It’s a gap for Jimmy and Co to play in…. Just a rather small one :)
OK – this is pushing the current theories to their limits as I said to go this far back…
I’m happier going back to merely 10^-36 or 10^32 odd seconds after the start, when the inflationary period began and ended (another symmetry breaking of the forces, this time with the strong force breaking away) – there is reasonable evidence in the cosmic background radiation to support this idea of the inflationary big bang model.
So, maybe, if I am being generous to God He actual has been 0 and 0.00000000000000000000000000000001 seconds.
I’m nice like that me :)
Enough physics for one day – since Jimmy will just ignore it I am sure (well, Jimmy has ignored the theory of evolution after all)
Lee
Bruce wrote:
I will clarify why I am getting off the bus - with Rob I suspect - of this discussion, soon. (In a word, because in its current form, it is fruitless and for me, time-wasting). Cheers :)
What?
Running away before you have even started in a debate?
You started a debate, but will not respond? At least tell us why we are wrong?
I will await your clarification then before I say much more, I hope it explains why our points are invalid.
If not, you have a problem with your faith.
I merely want to know why I am wrong - can you just give me a few pointers?
I have given you many why I feel you are wrong. It should give you something to attack.
Thanks
Lee
I shouldn't of course have spoken for Rob, he can speak for himself. Read yesterday's comments, not your last 2 long ones yet Lee, just the one for me. I have to focus on moving to Bradford in the next week, especially clearing out junk! Further comment from me will need to wait. I don't mean by getting of the bus, cutting off all communication, but I will be explaining why I won't be continuing in detailed back and forth debate (said partly why in earlier comment to J).
Hi Bruce,
Read yesterday's comments, not your last 2 long ones yet Lee, just the one for me.
Well, I have only just written my two long posts today, so no problem there - they were mainly replying to Jimmy's response anyway.
I wait of course for your own reply.
No rush, and I mean that. So long as I'm not totally forgotten...
For the next few weeks any lengthy posts from me will have to wait for the weekend, I'm a bit busy at work as I've said so cannot reply as much as I have been doing lately.
I have to focus on moving to Bradford in the next week, especially clearing out junk!
Good luck... at least you will be able to get a good curry - I miss those. Hara Krishna is cheap, but not as good as chicken madras
And take the junk with you… no one in Bradford will notice :)
I don't mean by getting of the bus, cutting off all communication,
Sorry, but I've not heard your phrase before, it did seem like a "closing of a door" for some reason.
but I will be explaining why I won't be continuing in detailed back and forth debate
It’s OK… theists walk away from me in debates all the time, you will not be the first or the last. I don’t take it personally…
Oh of course the theist have always given their reasons, too busy or that I am “too closed minded”, don’t accept their evidence - though never explaining how they are more open minded or why they accept their “evidence” but reject all the “evidence” for the other faiths/religions – funny that, everyone is closed minded except those who agree with them – erm…interesting?
Not saying this is the case with you Bruce, so I love to hear your reply and reasons… it should be interesting.
I guess you will be very busy in your new job at first, so good luck again
See ya
Lee
Jimmy
Saying "We don't know"
May be perfectly acceptable to you.
But I would not equate "not knowing"
with "knowing" there is no God.
Jimmy, not knowing is only evidence of ignorance - not evidence there is a god!
Where has anyone said here they know there is no god?
Until some evidence comes along, I have as much reason to believe that he exists as I have that fairies do. Please try and take this in - I t is becoming very boring repeating this to you.
You did not clarify your earlier statement.
Not knowing about the "Heart" in human psychology surprises me, but I like to learn new things and I'm sure you do to.
That is not what I said! I said no theist has ever validated the use of heart as a means of understanding. If you claim it unlocks the understanding of the supernatural realm, you have to demonstrate it. You cant say that it is valid because you pre-suppose the supernatural exists. That is a gross fallacy. You have to demonstrate it exists first then validate "heart" otherwise it is a circular fallacy
Jimmy
Saying "We don't know"
May be perfectly acceptable to you.
But I would not equate "not knowing"
with "knowing" there is no God.
Jimmy, not knowing is only evidence of ignorance - not evidence there is a god!
Where has anyone said here they know there is no god?
Until some evidence comes along, I have as much reason to believe that he exists as I have that fairies do. Please try and take this in - I t is becoming very boring repeating this to you.
You did not clarify your earlier statement.
Not knowing about the "Heart" in human psychology surprises me, but I like to learn new things and I'm sure you do to.
That is not what I said! I said no theist has ever validated the use of heart as a means of understanding. If you claim it unlocks the understanding of the supernatural realm, you have to demonstrate it. You cant say that it is valid because you pre-suppose the supernatural exists. That is a gross fallacy. You have to demonstrate it exists first then validate "heart" otherwise it is a circular fallacy
Lee
Having never studied physics
it would be foolish of me to talk about the subject as though I knew much about it.
From what I've picked up it seems to me the problem with quantum mechanics is that at the subatomic level a particle can be in many areas of space at the one time making it very difficult to make repeatable predictions as to where it will be.
So particles at the subatomic level could be said to be omnipresent.
To me this omnipresence is like the DNA of God.
Billy
I would have to say that 'not knowing' is not evidence of ignorance,in fact not knowing and knowing it is a sign of intelligence.
Ignorance is thinking you know when you don't.
Ignorance is thinking you know when you don't.
No, I gnorance is not knowing - be it willful or otherwise. We currently do not know what many genes do. That is ignorance. We will however discover what they do despite our current ignorance. You however are arguing from a position of ignorance as evidence - you dont know whether the first cause has a natural explanation or not and you are using current ignorance on the subject as evidence for god. That is not evidence - you have to prove the natural is not a possibility first.
As Lee keeps pointing out, god keeps disappearing from the gaps. That is better evidence that god does not exist, but still not absolute proof, but you are the saying god did it, so you have to provide better evidence for your case - good luck!
I could argue that all we know about natutre just tells us how it works and says nothing about a deistic belief.
This is still your problem, not ours - you have to demonstrate god exists.
No evidence of fairies = no belief in fairies. Likewise, no evidence for god = no belief in god.
Hi Jimmy,
Having never studied physics
it would be foolish of me to talk about the subject as though I knew much about it.
You are right there... it would be foolish, but this is what the theist does all the time if you listen closely - about many subjects – if the theist does not know how the answer, it must be God. (Erm… what did you say earlier about how life and the universe started?)
So how much do you know about the theory of evolution? You lack of knowledge of the subject, but you feel you know enough to say it is wrong?
You know nothing about how the universe started, yet you claim it HAS to be a God.
Can you see the problem yet?
From what I've picked up it seems to me the problem with quantum mechanics is that at the subatomic level a particle can be in many areas of space at the one time making it very difficult to make repeatable predictions as to where it will be.
Sorry, not quite right. The problem is that it doesn't explain gravity very well, I told you this.
What you point out is just a fact that at the subatomic level things get a little uncertain, so a scientist can only talk of probabilities but don't confuse this to mean the physicist cannot make accurate predictions, they can.
The "jewel in the crown" of science theories is Quantum electrodynamics (QED), which I have said many times before has made predictions for the outcome of an experiment to better than one part in a 10 billion. The theory might be better than that, but the experimenters have not got passed the 10th decimal place yet.
So it is not bad at making predictions... how does that compare to any prediction given in the bible?
So particles at the subatomic level could be said to be omnipresent.
Not really (unless you like to play with odds close to zero?)
I can be pretty certain an electron for a hydrogen atom is within the size of an atom.
Pretty small volume, and pretty certain about it.
Where inside the atom?
Well… then I am a little uncertain and will have to quote probabilities.
To me this omnipresence is like the DNA of God.
The omnipresent nature of God isn't my only problem... can you argue the case for an all-powerful, all-loving and all-knowing God? (Doubt it)
It is here I have a problem with your God... it isn't possible to have all 3 in the universe we observe, this is my evidence against your God - the known universe.
Anyway Jimmy, you missed the main point of my original post – maybe a re-read is required – care to disprove the natural explanations to how life or the universe started? Until you can, why do you interject a more complex solution and expect me to accept it without any positive evidence?
Cheers
Lee
Hi Bruce, missing a comment from me I sent yesterday - are you just busy - surely we have not lost another post :)
Lee
Comment from me will need to wait - possibly till I'm in Bradford; we'll see how this junk-clearing goes...
Didn't publish your short comment from Sat Lee cos you were just backing up Billy and I think you've given Jimmy quite enough to cope with .
Lee
Thank you for another challenging reply.
You ask..Care to disprove the natual explanations as to how life or the universe started.
There is no natural explanation as to how the universe and life started.
There is attempts at theories and explanations from the moment after it started but for that moment before there is nothing.
I would fill that moment before with the voice of God saying
"Let there be light"
It is true when you look at the news it would be so easy to wonder - where is God in all this.
On the night Jesus was arrested for everyone around him it was chaos their whole world was falling apart. Even the people who condemned him were saying - if God was with him then God would rescue him.
But God was at the very centre of the unfolding events.
In our world today even in our chaos God is there. We cannot see the eternal but I believe when we do then we will see that God has always been all present all powerful all knowing and all loving.
I'm not basing this on wishful thinking but on the events surrounding the arrest and crucifiction of Christ.
Hi Jimmy,
Thank you for another challenging reply.
Thank you once again for thinking about it.
There is no natural explanation as to how the universe and life started.
How wrong you are - on the universe front (since I’ll hope Billy will help me on the theories on life getting started) here’s an idea that tackles your question directly…
http://www.colorado.edu/philosophy/
vstenger/Godless/Origin.pdf
A quick search found a different one here
http://arxiv.org/abs/astro-ph/9712344
and here
http://arxiv.org/abs/hep-th/9802057
another idea here…
http://arxiv.org/abs/hep-th/0111098
and here
http://arxiv.org/abs/gr-qc/0601085
here…
http://prola.aps.org/abstract/PRD/v28/i12/p2960_1
How about this…
http://arxiv.org/abs/astro-ph/0111191
So there are many natural explanations on how the universe got started, they might not be complete, but none of the papers above require an unexplainable God as their source – they “could work”.
Can you provide any reasons why the above theories are wrong or why a natural explanation is not possible? Nope… of course not. You just hold onto your dream taught to you are a child that it must be God.
Can you provide any reason how your God came from nothing? Nope – yet you try and use this argument against the atheist and think it is valid?
You say we cannot explain how “nothing came from nothing”. Well, as you can see from the few links I given you, there are many possible explanations.
Yet you cannot provide one for your argument – I wonder why?
There is attempts at theories and explanations from the moment after it started but for that moment before there is nothing.
I hope the above links have helped you understand that you are not correct in holding this position :)
The problem is testing these ideas… nothing more.
However, once the universe started – as you said – the theories are testable and are pretty damn good.
You do accept the universe started 13.7 billion years ago, and that the Big Bang theory explains it rather nicely don’t you? If not, can you please explain the observed Cosmic Background radiation to me please?
I would fill that moment before with the voice of God saying
"Let there be light"
Anyone hear him say that?
Where did God come from? Who created God?
Why did God decide to say “let there be light”? How come no one knew this until a few thousand years ago?
Why did God create a universe that can be explained by simple physics and the Big Bang model so that it needed zero input from him once started?
Where is the evidence that this God is the Christian God you follow and not just an unknown deistic god?
You see Jimmy, your answer actually answers nothing. You need to back it up with more than wishful thinking.
I'm not basing this on wishful thinking but on the events surrounding the arrest and crucifiction of Christ.
This would be a whole new discussion – the historical evidence for Jesus Christ, so lets not change the subject yet – unless of course you have good independent evidence for Jesus and the miracles that happened at the crucifixion? Love to hear it.
Lee
Jimmy,
Just to back up what Lee has said, your answer answers nothing.
What evidence do you have that the universe needs a non natural explanation? You are claiming that god is essential, so where is the evidence? You seem to be arguing from a position of ignorance - new discoveries are made all the time. Since naturalistic explanations are far from complete, that makes your task even harder, since you dont fully know what you have to refute.
I would fill that moment before with the voice of God saying
"Let there be light"
Why? where is your independant evidence?
Why would god also need light to create? Remember now, it is before the sun was allegedly made - after the earth!
But God was at the very centre of the unfolding events.
How do you know? Evidence? Are you saying that god's interactions are obsevable? If so, where is your evidence?
I'm not basing this on wishful thinking but on the events surrounding the arrest and crucifiction of Christ.
I would like to hear this evidence. From what I can see a couple of accounts say a guy was crucified - they disagree on important details and the authorship is suspect. There is no independant verification of this event and there certainly are no other accounts of the dead rising from their graves - an odd thing for the likes f josephus to not record. Then there is the gospels of peter and Judas which paint a very different picture of the events - jesus did not suffer and the betrayal was planned with jesus (judas apparently being his best friend)). So I would like to hear your explanation
As I say, little comment from me this week, far too much to do; but it does strike me Lee and Billy that if you want to mount a serious intellectual challenge against Christianity, you're going to have to do rather more than debate with Jimmy. Reading and engaging with some material that discusses the science/religion relationship in a rather more sophisticated and current way than your god of the gaps argumentation indicates would be a start. Otherwise, frankly, you'll convince only yourselves.
Reading and engaging with some material that discusses the science/religion relationship in a rather more sophisticated and current way than your god of the gaps argumentation indicates would be a start. Otherwise, frankly, you'll convince only yourselves.
Bruce, maybe you didn't read the posts carefully, but what part of you cant refute naturalistic explanations and provide evidence that a god did it did you struggle with? How is ignorance - and lets face it, thats the basis of the cosmological/anthropic/teleological arguments positive evidence for the existence of god? Particularly when there is still so much to discover. No matter how sophisticated you try and pretend it is, it still boils down to the theist saying "I cant explain it, it must be god". That't like saying your ignorance of how computers work is evidence that they are powered by magic. Such attitudes also stifle further explanations. It forces you to accept ignorance - whether god is there or not!
So, how about some real evidence and not just smuggly assuming you are right without actually going to the bother of providing some evidence - admittedly that is hard when ignorance is considered evidence. I dont think this is a good approach, and it is always the same story when a theist replies - arguments from ignorance and no evidence, but comments like your last sentence.
So, how are gaps evidence of god? I presume you will cite the usual - well I cant shee how.... theistic line. I hope to be otherwise surprised though, but do forguve me if I dont think I will be.
BTW My cold is still bad, your prayers dont work. If you want to provide some evidence of god, you are going to have to do a lot better than that, or you might even fail to convince yourself :-)
Reading and engaging with some material that discusses the science/religion relationship in a rather more sophisticated and current way than your god of the gaps argumentation indicates would be a start.
Oh, that reminds me, do you have an answers yet to the question "Can you provide an example - just one- where religious faith has enhanced a theory?" It shouldn't be too difficult if there is indeed a valid relationship between the two. The silence is deafening! Why is that?
I have read the last few posts Billy. I don't think I need to underline, but I will do once more, that any further comment from me on this will have to wait. Frankly though I do still think that as the situation stands, debate is pretty fruitless and pointless, and I'll be largely resuming writing what I want - not what you want - to write about; though of course you'll still be free to comment.
No one has ever told you what to write Bruce, but when you do choose to write about science and faith and say that they enhance each other, it is only reasonable to expect an example of where faith has contributed to any scientific theory. Frankly, the atheists have put much more effort into this than you - and it was your claim. The reason we keep pushing this is because there is no mutual enhancement. The scientific method (as we have stated adnauseum - with illustrations) is not compatible with religious faith.
Bruce
I can understand your frustration with the comments.
Any apologetic argument I could make has already been made and written by people much more capable than me.
I've already said I only went to school now and again between the ages of 7 and 11 and just about learnt how to read.
Not only that but I don't particularly like reading I never really got into the habit.
So I'd have to agree with you that if an atheist was wanting something to bite on they would be better reading the best books available on the for and against regarding the subjects in dispute.
However I'd have to say
in debate there is still a place for a Christian to say what he feels the Lord has laid on his heart.
After all the Lord knows what people need to hear.
And if you don't mind being a fool if you're wrong then there is always the possibility of hitting the mark.
This last paragraph reminded me of this
Give me the books that Homer read
and I will learn their art
if not give me the leave to quote
the feeling of my heart.
Hi Bruce,
I do feel it is “odd” that you create a post asking questions to us all, but you will not get involved in the discussion that follows.
You claim that me and Billy are talking bollocks (my technically term) but you are not saying what it is you disagree with or why on this thread (or any other thread for quite sometime).
This means you are neither challenging or engaging in a discussion of your making – merely blaming our “ignorance” on faith and religion as your reason for not entering the debate – you are not trying to “educate” us to the right way of thinking or explaining what we are so ignorant on.
This is not about “converting” anybody, I am merely trying to demonstrate to you (the other party) that my personal beliefs are based on logic, reason and evidence.
How am I doing? :)
I am also trying to “dig out” from you your own personal logic, reason and evidence for holding the beliefs you do – I am digging rather hard since you are not given much.
I’ve no problem if the reason for your lack of replies is due merely to you not having the time and it is this that is preventing you from “engaging”. However, this isn’t what you write as you main reason.
You latest comment I almost found l laughable as a result - if you didn’t actually believe it.
...but it does strike me Lee and Billy that if you want to mount a serious intellectual challenge against Christianity, you're going to have to do rather more than debate with Jimmy.
Why?
Firstly, I don’t have to “mount a serious intellectual challenge” against Zeus do I as well? Or Fairies at the bottom of the garden, or Big Foot, alien landings, magic beans etc etc etc
No, merely a few pointers to state how unfounded and groundless such beliefs are should be good enough – I have been doing this by the bucket load against your Christian God and holy book.
If I can provide a natural explanation, however incomplete, it is more than enough of a challenge against such unsubstantiated beliefs, especial in the major claim of a theistic god interacting in my current affairs.
So, sorry Bruce, it is YOU who needs to “mount a serious intellectual challenge” against the natural explanations. YOU who needs to make an argument FOR your claims. Science has been “disproving” the claims from religion for the last 400 years – it is doing rather well. As a result, Christianity today is very different to how it was 450 years ago.
Since you have don’t reply, I can only suspect you have nothing to give in response – all your reading has provided zero answers to our questions, you must know this since you have NOT been able to quote any chapter or page from any book that challenges us – yet I am merely an uneducated fool you say – but the fool who is pointing out the emperor is not wearing any clothes
You tried once or twice to quote from your “reference” books – which I appreciate and enjoy the discussion that followed (for a while, since you soon leave any such discussion for some reason.)
If you find the arguments in your books, that challenge my worldview then, please, please, please quote it – I really would love to hear where I am wrong.
I want to know where I am wrong – I want to be disproved. (Can you honestly say the same?)
You seem to wish to hide behind the belief that IF we read these books we would find the “answers” (that you cannot find, but still believe are there) – the problem though is I have read many books, and listened to many lectures on such topics – I hear and read nothing but wishful thinking or twisted logic.
I would be more than happy to discuss this with you - so you can show me the errors of my ways – yet, no... Am I too ignorant for you – to close minded? Show me where, and please explain why.
Everything you have said against me so far I have challenged – you have not responded.
Reading and engaging with some material that discusses the science/religion relationship in a rather more sophisticated and current way than your god of the gaps argumentation indicates would be a start.
If you tell me how I can debate with a book – I would love to hear it.
I am here on blogs like this to be challenged, to engage, to learn where I am wrong. I enjoy the intellectual challenge - I have not run away from any question given to me – can you say the same?
Otherwise, frankly, you'll convince only yourselves.
But who is fooling themselves – that is the real question.
Frankly though I do still think that as the situation stands, debate is pretty fruitless and pointless
Like most things in life, you only get out what you put in.
It is sad that you feel you can no longer debate your position/argument.
All I ask is for you to honestly think why this is so.
See ya
Lee
PS
Sorry you are not feeling better Billy – maybe you just not praying hard enough, keep trying, I’m sure it will work soon.
Ok guys, you've pushed me to it, let me clarify my position in this discussion.
Jimmy, I didn't at all intend to belittle your contributions; I've always valued what you have to say, and you often entertain too.
Billy, Lee. Time most assuredly is of the essence for me this week. But let me try and be clear and brief where I stand.
To be honest, I simply am not interested in sustained back and forth debate as you are. I'm interested in writing posts that express what's important to me, what I think and feel, and sometimes - quite a lot recently - that may mean addressing questions about faith, including with respect to atheism. But that doesn't mean I necessarily then want to get caught up in a long debate about it.
In my lifetime of reading and experience, I have gained enough assurance of the intellectual integrity of Christianity to satisfy me of its essential truthfulness and trustworthiness, and to allow me to embark on the adventure of the life of faith and relationship with God in a way that is real and meaningful to me. And I want to express what I'm thinking and feeling as I go along that path - including, sometimes, my own questions, doubts, struggles.
You have a different set of questions and interests. Now I have read many of your comments, and I may well incorporate some response to them in future posts. But back and forth debate will simply hamper and hinder me from writing about what I want to write about. It's your passion; it's not mine, though I don't mind a bit of it. You'll have to accept that. Writing a post like this one doesn't oblige me to be locked into debating it.
I can say that if you continue reading, you will in a more indirect, gradual way, indeed as you say you want Lee, learn more about what, how and why I think and believe as I do. But I'm not going to be hounded into answering your qs, and that's what it can often feel like. So go ahead, pose them, and if you're reasonable and polite I'll continue publishing them; but then accept my own freedom to respond or not respond as I wish.
On faith, let me briefly say: your view of it as something believers just appeal to, a card to pull out, when something is unexplained, really is a crude caricature. If you would like me to recommend something to read to help dispel this distortion and provide a more realistic and thoughtful exploration of what faith is, and how it relates to reason and evidence, I can look something out.
Now I've got a lot of leaving prep to do. Take care just now.
Hi Jimmy,
Any apologetic argument I could make has already been made and written by people much more capable than me.
There have been many crap ones – I’m hoping that you, being a believer, will be able to share the good ones. If not, why do you believe in something you cannot make an argument for?
So I'd have to agree with you that if an atheist was wanting something to bite on they would be better reading the best books available on the for and against regarding the subjects in dispute.
I have tried many books and listened to many lectures/debates as I have said. I have not heard or read anything really convincing – rarely do you hear an argument FOR God, normally it is in a negative of “Well, you cannot answer this, so it must be God” – very poor, since it doesn’t tell you which god.
Besides, it is the discussion and debate that I enjoy – the sharing and challenging of my own views. I could be wrong, and I am happy to find this out.
However I'd have to say
in debate there is still a place for a Christian to say what he feels the Lord has laid on his heart.
You can say “what you feel”, but can you argue FOR it? Can you give good reason why I should believe it?
After all the Lord knows what people need to hear.
And if you don't mind being a fool if you're wrong then there is always the possibility of hitting the mark.
I would be a fool to say I know it all, so I don’t – I am open to the argument, good reason and of course evidence.
Can the theist say that same?
Lee
PS
Feel free to answer my previous reply to you – thanks. I would hate to think you are avoiding the questions.
Hi Bruce,
Thanks for the reply – I understand a little more. (A little push here and there goes a long way :)
The past few months you have been “up for” debate, but now feel you cannot continue – no problems, but it is a shame as I said.
I am glad you are interested in sharing your views on faith, but without a discussion – as you have said many times before – I’ll be better off reading a book.
I’m also glad you feel you have “gained enough assurance of the intellectual integrity of Christianity” because I have found zero – and I have looked and asked.
Religion seems void to me of any answers, and it seems the only way to maintain belief in it is to ignore the problems, or trick yourself into believing the con-trick.
I am still interested in the mindset and thinking of the theist, but not the patience to read hundreds of posts to gain “indirectly” – sorry, life is just too short.
You have of course noticed I enjoy the debate more than just reading – it is a shortcut in learning I find.
I am sorry you feel “hounded” by my questions, but I was under the illusion that we were in a debate and questions naturally arise.
I am therefore disappointed that you feel you cannot address them, however this is more your problem than mine.
You criticise my view on faith as a “crude caricature” but when I have asked direct questions about faith to understand it more I hear only a deafening silence.
It is poor form to criticise the student when the teacher has not been able to explain their position :)
So “crude caricature” or not, you have used faith as an answer when you have no argument, but never addressed what faith actually is.
You state many people have evidence for their faith, but you can neither explain this evidence NOR explain why anyone with faith would require evidence or how two people using faith get to completely different conclusions.
Besides, what is faith with evidence – to me it doesn’t make sense. This isn’t a criticism, it is merely my lack of understanding – you know that I have never been religious and maybe it is because I depend evidence and reason too heavily, but no one has shown me why this is wrong. (You have had your chance)
On your last point, on you providing “a more realistic and thoughtful exploration of what faith is, and how it relates to reason and evidence” – I would like that, but please could you read the book first is all I will ask. The science and religion book you recommended went down like a lead balloon as they say.
I do have this problem with evidence and faith as I said– it seems a contradiction in words – my ignorance again? You tell me.
Cheers – and good luck with the move.
Lee
Jimmy,
You dont need to know the sequence of the human genome to see the fallacy of an argument, and when we point them out I would like to think you can at least see the fallacy.
And god does not know what man needs to hear in my experience - You have just commited another subjective fallacy here.
Lee Well said, I constantly notice how much more effort atheists put into their responses (This is a general observation in case Bruce feels persecuted). It does actually refute Bruce's claim that "your view of it as something believers just appeal to, a card to pull out, when something is unexplained, really is a crude caricature.". That is the clearly demonstrable fact of the matter, and even the likes of McGrath fall back on that.
Bruce I do wonder how seriously you wish to be challenged. It seems you dont get out of the comfort zone of faith. If that is how you wish to live your life, then fine. If you are genuinely interested in what is true, then I would say you have to push the doubts more.
Yeah, that prayer is not working. I had to go home early from work yesterday and am taking today off
Read your comments L and B. There's always a balance to be struck. You may find Lee that, allowed space to write as and what I wish to, you might find out more from me about a Christian's way of thinking, in a way that interests you, than you expect. We have to accept each other's different styles and approaches; you like quick back and forth repartee, whereas I prefer to let qs and comments percolate and perhaps write in a later post something responding to one or more. The topic is big and not easy I don't deny it, and we each have a huge largely invisible 'iceberg' of underlying reading, thought and experience of why we think and believe as we do. I'll continue to explore and you're welcome to join as you wish.
Bruce
I would not feel offended by any of your comments, I know the points you are making are valid.
You also put a lot of thought and structure into your posts and comments which I think is not always given it's due respect.
Lee
I will work through the links you've given me. The first one has a lot in favour of belief in God as well as against.
From the main page.
Billy
Your 'God does not know' comment is also subjective to you.
To me - 'God does know' but I think only God can reveal that to you.
Perhaps it has something to do with the way we process information. when I examine the information available to me I can see the DNA/Fingerprints of God all over it.
Your 'God does not know' comment is also subjective to you.
Jimmy, pay attention to the words IN MY EXPERIENCE.
To me - 'God does know' but I think only God can reveal that to you.
To me, South indian garlic chilli is the best dish ever - that does not mean there is objective truth to your statement.
when I examine the information available to me I can see the DNA/Fingerprints of God all over it.
Only becase you want to see them. What about smal pox, do you see the creative act of a loving god in that?
Billy, have you ever considered a career in education?
'Pay attention at the back!'
I think you've got something.
Bruce - no talking in class or I'll put you in the choir!
That's not much of a threat; I love singing!
What about falsetto? in a tutu? (dont know why my PE teacher just sprang to mind there)
Billy
I think I do need a teacher
I fail to see how you saying 'in my experience' negates the subjectivity of your comment.
Unless of course you had your fingers crossed at the time.
Think I'll watch Beat the Goalie tonight.
Did you know that Glasgow Grangers was instituted by the Hollywood actor Stewart Granger,
and the very first team were made up mostly of his illegitimate children.
Hi Jimmy,
I will work through the links you've given me. The first one has a lot in favour of belief in God as well as against.
The first one, by Stenger, is for me the most interesting and is written for the more "general" reader (ignoring the maths of course). This is the man who wrote the book I recommended to Bruce.
The rest of the links are merely examples that natural explanations are out there. I am not saying they are right or wrong. So just read the blur if you like.
The point is, given natural explanations, why insert a more complex God?
To insert a more complex God you have to justify it –by showing such a god is required. This can be done via argument or simply by disproving the natural explanations.
Bruce wrote:
That's not much of a threat; I love singing!
But you don’t know what you will have to sing. It could be torture.
Lee
Hi Jimmy,
Got this link via RD.net
"Did pre-big bang universe leave its mark on the sky?"
http://space.newscientist.com/
article/mg19826514.300-
did-prebig-bang-universe-leave
-its-mark-on-the-sky.html
?DCMP=ILC-hmts
It relates to the 5th link I gave you on the possible natural explanations for the start of the universe on "Loop Quantum Cosmology"
http://arxiv.org/abs/gr-qc/0601085
There may be a test for one of the ideas then at least.
Isn't science great?
So, how are you doing on your arguments FOR God?
Lee
I fail to see how you saying 'in my experience' negates the subjectivity of your comment.
Unless of course you had your fingers crossed at the time.
It doesent. The phrase shows I am aware of the fact - although, it is not strictly subjective - number of answered prayers - zero!
Did you know that Glasgow Grangers was instituted by the Hollywood actor Stewart Granger,
and the very first team were made up mostly of his illegitimate children.
Every day is a school day :-)
I have no shame-
http://www.lulu.com/
content/2317231
Jonathan wrote:
I have no shame
Shame on you :)
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