Hunkered down and holed up in Bridge of Weir till the 5th. Just watched Ryan's Daughter cos it's five stars and described as a bleak romantic epic; directed by David Lean. Good in its depiction of a young girl's yearning for passion, and the mob cruelty and cowardice, but lonngg... Yesterday, embarked on The Spy who loved me but simply stopped caring with half an hour or so to go, though Jaws's grin and the corny lines hooked me in at the start.
Interacting at close quarters with folk who don't share my faith can be unsettling. I've recently spent time with some people close to me who are not 'in the Christian fold'. But they espouse and practise worthy values of unselfishness, caring, good relationships and communication. Sometimes, particularly in the realm of practical, helping tasks, I have felt put in the shade by unbelieving peers whose character and actions appear to outshine mine. It prompts me to reflect on the complex web of influences that shape an individual's personality and the fruit of their life. Believing in God, I guess I regard all such influences as having their ultimate source in... Him? the Godhead? (I wonder if English will any time soon acquire a non gender specific personal pronoun...) But I don't mean that to sound glib. It's striking how far off the radar any sustained thought about God is in the minds of many decent, moral folk in western society. We watched 'The Lion, the witch and the wardrobe' on Boxing Day. It was followed by Eastenders. A family member commented on the incongruity of this Christmassy magical fantasy and the gritty realism of 'the square'. Narnia, sandwiched between soaps. Did anyone, I thought, recognise or entertain the possibility of a link between Lewis's fantasy land, and reality? That Narnia might symbolise an unseen but accessible and extraordinary spiritual world that could impinge on our ordinary workaday world? For how many did the magic of the story crumble to dust as the credits rolled?
I'm reminded again of what former thinkers have noted of God's 'hiddenness'. The story of Christ's resurrection, if real, must have the power to transfigure a life, and ultimately the world. And perhaps in cultures more open to spiritual reality than ours its power impacts more readily. Here the seed in large part lies dormant. When I read a word of scripture in the morning, when fresh, eg the other day, 'Your hearts must not be troubled, bleieve in God, believe also in me...' John 14:1, I sense its radical power... all those things I need to learn not to worry about... So if I allow it to change me, maybe it can at least start to change my world.
Happy new year.
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42 comments:
Why on earth should non christians not be "good" people?
You dont need christianity for anything (unless you want to cause schisms 38 000 and counting)
Non christians might make ok people but they rarely make good people. I dont think non christians go to hell but I would be suprised if they made it any higher than purgatory.
What many atheists lack is a self transforming ethic - they are not obliged to anything bigger than their own opinions and so they rarely develop outside of their own self absorption.
To make a stereotype - Athiests are big little people instead of little big people. The problem with your kind billy is there is nothing to really stretch you. You are like weeds as opposed to sunflowers - sure you get nice weeds and you get failed sunflowers but really billy you need to get some discipline - and settle your perspective on actively helping others - instead of just getting excited by the sound of your own voice and distracted by the echo of your own unresolved inner dillemas.
What have you really done with your life billy. Talk yourself in circles climb a few hills and pay your own rent . Boring. In a middle distance race atheists are strictly members of the pack - but you rarely make winners. You get distracted by too many things...
Like replying to this comment...
Sam, that has to be one of the most patronising self righteous pieces I have read. It sounds like you have a small judgemental mind. You don't even know me, you dont know what I do or have done with my spare time.
What have you done that is so great?
You really are so small minded I have to say it twice?
Why do I have nothing to push me to want to do better? What makes you think that? The result of a religious brainwashed life I would bet.
Sam, you are the worst kind of christian. The type that proves that christianity does not transform lives.
If I choose to change something, then I know it is me who is doing it - that forces me not to be complacent.
Comeback once you have matured - I think I might even post your reply on my blog as an example of what christianity does to folk.
PS Sam,
The question still stands why on earth would I need christianity to be a good person?
Many christians I know are actually quite selfish - they will even tell you that themselves, so your point is......?
Small minded ? I talk from my own experience - what a nerve, eh ?
Yeah post me on your blog - do whatever nasty little verbal things you want. Whatever gets you through your day. Give me a practical demonstration that your atheism boils down to nothing more than arranging pompous little textual puppet shows for you and your online friends.
I'll listen to you when you don't have the time for all this rubbish. I'll listen to you when you stop talking and start doing something...
Next time your building hospitals in botswana you give me a ring...
Sam, smug little creature - aren't you.
I asked you what you actually know about what I do or do not do - your reply did'nt adress that. basically, you assume that because I am an atheist I do not do good things. You assume that I have no means to strive to better myself. You apparently assume that I dont give to charity. You assume I dont give my time to help others ...... I'm still left with the conclusion that your faith has made you judge me (isn't that a sin)?
I asked you what makes you so great? I'm still waiting.
I asked you why you need christianity to be good? I'm still waiting.
The truth is that non christian thinkers have come up with all the values you cherish before christianity plagiarised them - you want to get out more.
Let me know the next time you do a good deed because you want to not because you feel your god demands it.
I would say that doing something with out expecting a reward makes me more moral than you.
Finally, what do "good deeds" have to do with whther god exists or not?
Feel free to comment on your thread on my blog - wouldn't want you to be misrepresented now
Sam-
Nice comment.
"Non christians might make ok people but they rarely make good people. I dont think non christians go to hell but I would be suprised if they made it any higher than purgatory."
What a massive generalisation. I note especially the use of the phrase "non-Christian"- are you therefore claiming that the majority of the world's population (including Hindus, Muslims, Buddhists etc) are bad people? If you're not, then you should be more careful about your comments.
"To make a stereotype - Athiests are big little people instead of little big people."
Another generalisation. You don't know Billy, me, or many other atheists. Yet you judge us all in such a way. It seems about time for a Bible verse: "Judge not, lest ye be judged". Ringing any bells, Sam?
"Next time your building hospitals in botswana you give me a ring..."
So does that mean you've been building hospitals in Botswana? If not, then why criticise Billy for not doing that? If so, then just how Christian is it to boast about how good you are?
Hi Sam,
Only one question... are you for real?
Or just trying to make Christianity look bad for some’ evil purpose’?
Either way, keep talking - it makes me smile.
Lee
Very amusing,
There was a sign over the cross which mocked jesus - but in sam's case he ends up with a merely a label under billys blog post : "fundie nut".
Why did you pick Sam billy ? I wrote to you quite a lot over the summer and you never did me the credit of such a public exposure. Maybe I will have to try harder next summer :)
Bruce do you think Sam's approach is unchristian. I seem to remember a verse in johns gospel "by their fruits shall you know them". But then what do I know Jonathon has probably read the bible more than me...
I would recommend the cartoon on billys blog "jesus loves you" - I thought it was very amusing. If your experience of the plymouth brethern was a wariness of their "love of the blood" - mine was always a fascination with their love of hellfire. I remember a picture in our maths class of a child on fire - it said "fire burns - think about it". It was an advert for the fire brigade but I never new why it wasnt hijacked by ardent evangelists...
Lee regarding your comment on that post - just because people can get the wrong end of the stick with theological language does that mean they always have to ?
Before this becomes a flame war will people acknowledge that you can get crap christians and crap athiests and you get good christians and good atheists ? Or am I asking to much of our shared audience ?
Happy New Year to all
R.
Liked the you tube jesus cartoon on your blog - by the way - very amusing.
Rob,
Happy new year. You will need to try harder to be taged "fundie nut bag". Your posts tend not to make sweeping statements and pretend to know what I do - or pass judgement on me purely because I am an atheist.
Before this becomes a flame war will people acknowledge that you can get crap christians and crap athiests and you get good christians and good atheists ? Or am I asking to much of our shared audience ?
I dont think any atheist here would claim otherwise. It seems to be the "christian" who is doing the generalisation here.
Rob Penman-
"But then what do I know Jonathon has probably read the bible more than me..."
Only the good bits, with the sex, violence, smiting and lakes of fire. So about 80, 85%. Most of the rest is about who begat who and how many cubits long a tortoise is.
:-)
Don't mention the tortoise controversy. Which blue peter was the true prophet of tortoise hibernation is still bitterly fought over. It's strange they never showed you what to do with a dead tortoise - like make an ash tray out of it.
I must say, there is a growing temptation in me to underline some of the nasty bible bits when I stay in a hotel that dares to assume that I may actually want a racist, slavery friendly, misogynistic book in my room :-)
Sam,
I assume you don't mean all atheists are like this - why does billy come into this category that you seem to be making - is there something particularly inconsequential about his brand of athiesm ?
I must admit I would find it a hard to call between the fatuous inanity of some christians and the self congratulatory contentment of some athiests. I'm not sure of the relevance of forming an opinion on which side is the least charitable. Publically I would be content to suggest that people - including myself - could do more to help others.
Privately my commitment to christianity means that I believe that christianity can be - but is not neccesarily always - an effective means to such a charitable goal.
What I am unsure about is that I would want to confuse the focus of my faith with an attack on other ways of thinking.
That to me seems to drag too much ill attention and what you call distraction in its wake. Lead by example by all means , but is there any need to point out where you think other people are not ?
However I simply might be rather too political and too european in my approach. Perhaps my political finesse is the reflection of our shared western lifestyles. I would be interested to know what Bruce thought of this ? When was the last time you cleansed a temple ?
But Sam, if you are genuinely are building hospitals in botswana then good luck to you. But do you think you could be more tactful in the way you do it ?
"I asked why you need Christianity to be good"
Billy, I'd have to say in all honesty if I was to put a bet on who was the most "good" between me and you my money would go on you.
I don't see myself as good at all but as a sinner in the sight of God.
The only righteousness acceptable to God is a righteousness equal to his own. We cannot make this "goodness" by our own efforts.
By faith in Christ and by a spiritual connection with Christ a person is deemed by God to share the righteousness of Christ and thereby is acceptable to God.
As far as "charity" is concerned I believe that everyone has a right to share in the produce of the world and people not having the basic things they need is a denial of their human rights.
Jimmy
Rob
I'm not distracted by billy's distate for my opinion - I would be worried if he had anything but contempt for me. Jesus didn't concern himself with peoples disaproval for him - nor was he frightened to point out what he saw as self indulgence or hypocrisy. He could call a spade a spade. In the gospels it says he did not come to bring peace but a sword. Did you read that bit Jonathon or were you too busy congratulating your self on your own thoughts ?
Im not enamoured by your view of the faith Rob. You seem so apologetic I question whether you have any real faith at all. Your approach is as decadent as billys.
I have little time for either of you. Billys blog is wholly negative and you rob are so defensive it's embarassing to read.
Apparently I am Judgemental - If that is your idea of me I can live with that. I am not insisting that billy is any more worthy of contempt than any of the rest of us. I am insisting his ideas - like robs - lead nowhere but up his own backside.
Billy why dont you go and start an atheist soup kitchen : "soup for soups sake". Then I might have some interest in what you say about ethics. Yes I have helped build hospitals in africa. And before you ask me - yes I collect food for a local soup kitchen. I attempt to follow jesus' teaching as plainly and as simply as I can. If you think that makes me self righteous I would suggest you are caught in the echo of your own thoughts.
I see nothing in Billys writings which speak of practically caring for anyone apart from himself - and rob answer me this do you enjoy reading theology while people starve and suffer? What part of "love the poor" did you find hard to understand ? Do you need me to hold your little book for you while you have a nice think ?
Pandering to the crowd is not part of my commitment to christ. You are shadows of men - arguing about a light which you have never shared.
Sam, You sound very angry. do you have a mental illness?
I would be worried if he had anything but contempt for me.
Prepare to be worried, I pity you. I feel sorry for you, and I hope you get better soon.
I have little time for either of you
What did jesus say the second greatest comandment was again? Oh, that's right, love your fellow man - wasn't it? Nice christian example
I see nothing in Billys writings which speak of practically caring for anyone apart from himself
You dont see anything about my favorite film either, but I have one. Had you actually read my posts, you would see concern for the victims of the evils of religion - however, you just want to shout and scream evil atheist - and now you attack your fellow christians - what did Paul say about that again?
AGAIN, I ASK YOU, WHAT GOOD DO YOU DO? YOU ARE REMARKABLY SILENT ON THE ISSUE FOR SOMEONE WITH SUCH A FOUL MIND
Just for your information, I have done the whole soup kitchen and more - feel pretty embarrased now?
WHAT HAVE YOU DONE FOR THE SAKE OF IT? I would argue that any one who does that (christian or otherwise) is a more moral person than you.
I know Bruce personally (saw him on Sunday) and he has spoken of Rob and I have no doubt that he is a sincere believer. How arrogant of you to doubt his belief. Please get some proper help.
Jimmy, as usual, I think you are too hard on yourself. Ignore the Sams of your faith - they only wannt to make you feel unworthy.
Just to reiterate sam, what makes you so great if you dont do something for the sake of it?
Before this becomes a flame war will people acknowledge that you can get crap christians and crap athiests and you get good christians and good atheists ? Or am I asking to much of our shared audience ?
Agreed.
Must go
Lee
What part of "love the poor" did you find hard to understand ?
What part of love don't you understand? Read 1 Cor 13 recently?
My original question was Why on earth should non christians not be "good" people? Can you answer it?
Billy why dont you go and start an atheist soup kitchen : "soup for soups sake". Then I might have some interest in what you say about ethics.
This is very telling. You think someone can only have a valid opinion on ethics if they do what you tell them to do - nice! Perhaps I should just tell you to shut up until such times as you are perfect then?
Again, I sincerly hope you come to terms with this inner torment that makes you spout intolerance. A great person would surely be tolerant. Does your bible not show jesus showing love to prostitutes, thieves and all manner of sinners. Frankly I dont see that in you. I see that in Bruce and Rob - and the atheists here - but not you. I would ask you to ponder that, but I feel your anger has the better of you and you have a delusion that you alone have a direct line to your god (much like the yorkshire ripper thought).
You are shadows of men - arguing about a light which you have never shared.
There you go Bruce, all that befriending foreign students and helping them settle in means nothing to our Sam. He seems to have passed judgement on you too - despite knowing nothing about you.
Sam, people like you put me off christianity - if Jesus is real, you better hope he doesn't have a millstone with him - Get satan out of you and go and repent in ashes and sack cloth. I think Rob actually asked a very atute question which get to the "heart" of what christianity is supposed to be: when did you last clean a temple?
It's funny that I as an atheist can tell you more about your first priority than you can - god first! As paul says if you do deeds with out love, they are meaningless - you clearly have none. I would suggest that you are the one putting on the appearance, but your heart is not where your jesus wants it to be. No need to thank me, because you will no doubt dismiss it as "crazy atheist talk" - even though what I say is entierly backed up by the bible - See, I can even sound like a christian if I want to. No doubt you alone know how to be a proper one - one who does not do good for the sake of it. One who seems to think people should put deeds before god.
This preaching stuff is simple - maybe I should get a God Channel slot and fleece gullible folk, buy a jet, travel the world and fleece foreign folk? Nah, my atheistic sense of morality couldn't stomach such abuse of others.
Please Sam forgive me for not neccesarily replying to you post directly,you see to have so wholeheartedly bypassed my earlier questions that I feel little regard to reply to you in a point by point fashion
Your weakness seems to be that you think one thing equals another. Billy likes to talk about athiesm therefore he must be self absorbed. I write about theology therefore I must be weak minded. You see one part of our lives and seem to know the rest.
You have made a view of the world in which a + b = c. Pity that it aint neccesarily so. I am afraid all you can be certain of is that a just means a, b means b, and c means c. The rest is just your own mental figment.
A figment which will only serve to block out the world around you. The measure you measure with - will eventually be measured back against you. Are they not Jesus's words ? By reprimanding billy and I you will not change us - you will just lose your own an ability to be critical or approach your faith with subtlety. All You do is make yourself smaller, tie yourself up in knots. Wave goodbye not to billy or I, we will still be here. Wave goodbye to your own inner billy and your own inner rob. The ones you have locked in the dungeon of your own mind.
Trust me brother you never know when you might need us. We could save you having a heart attack for christ. You will do so many good deeds you will be dead by the time your 50.
You dont have to be so "strong".
And ask yourself have you saved billy or I by your hostility. Most probably not. When did a flower ever grow out of fear ? An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind.
One day you might be open to the world ,its richness and diversity, and find your faith through what others are and not what you think they should be.
One day you might listen and not simply impose. Faith doesnt have to be found in struggle. You don't need to be so holy. Maybe you could try just being a little more whole.
Perhaps these ideas you have are important to you - critcsing the faith like billy or thinking about it as I do - might at the moment be an act of weakness for you. I am not saying you have to be like us. But I think it would help people understand the faith you have if you could listen to us without imposing your own agenda.
Forgive me if I am not more shocked by your assault. I have heard a lot of religious bellowing in my time and have become somewheat immune to it. Whether you like it or not speaking to people like billy has helped me reshape my own understanding of my faith, away from an idea and a cultural badge, and into a way of life of which I am much more confident reflects jesus' teaching.
Jimmy speaks highly of billy from personal experience : Indeed bruce has spoken to me of the gentleness of billys character. Why do you have to place him in your thoughtfully prepared mental prison of worthless athiests ? Do you need him to be a certain type of athiest?
By all means be a warrior for christ, just choose your battles
brother.
The only person you are making happy by saying these things is yourself.
By all means dont talk to athiests, don't talk to christian moderates. If you have no time for us, why do you need to keep telling us that ?
Sam-
"Did you read that bit Jonathon or were you too busy congratulating your self on your own thoughts?"
Well, that does take up a large part of my day. However, another Bible verse comes to mind, something about removing the plank from your own eye before complaining about sawdust in the eyes of others: Sam, do you require the services of a carpenter?
Incidentally, have you been building hospitals in Botswana?
Jimmy-
Good to hear from you again. I may not know you as well as the others, but I do think you are being too hard on yourself. I hope you had a good Christmas and New Year.
Thank you, Jonathan
I hope your Christmas and new year went well too
Jimmy
So billy you have done something in your life other than negate other peoples belief. Excellent . I am pleased. I would now categorise you as a potentially positive athiest. Categorise. Billy , not judge.
Rob I did attempt to follow your thoughts on judgement: to me they appear very contrived. I do not judge anyone; I am sure you will be happy to tell me that God alone is the judge of men.
However I do form judgements - generalistations - stereotypes if you like , and I use these to make decisions. I would argue that everyone does - even if some of you are in denial. Perhaps it is time you all came out of the closet. Philip 1978 appears closer to such a resolution than others.
Rob your conceptionless view of the world sounds rather like the ramblings of a stoned goldfish. Nothing can be said apart from this is this - and that is that ? We can never say this tends to that or that tends to this ? Do you take drugs to keep you in this primitive fugue like state ? Do you mistake this childlike trace for spirituality ? You remind me of Polonius in Hamlet - always drivelling at the mouth - thinking that someone else is reliving their own experiences.
Jesus died for his beliefs - he did not water them down to make them appealing to others. The early church chose to die rather than worship ceaser. I assume Rob you would have been happy to ramble - rationalise - and ultimately avoid the roman arenas. With your diseased intellect I am sure you would have been riddled with contagious excuses.
When will you realise that even your assertions that a is a, are themselves mental figments. Dr Benway on Billys blog paraded the second hand thought that we all share the same reality , irregardless of our cultural background. "We share the same biology regardless of ideology". This is nonsense - a leftover thought of adolescent CND campaigner - hardly befitting a doctor. Biology itself is a cultural construct. Nothing in our human experience exists without the medium and translation of culture. Dr Benway, were you poisoned by jean jacques rousseau in a previous life. ?
I have managed to resist his stupifying poison. However I am left like everyone else in the world with the prospect of making political and cultural decisions. I make these decisions as carefully as I can. Unsuprisingly I form categories - such as worthless athiest - retarded christian - and I place people in these categories - as I attempt to navigate from the purposelessness of modern life - to a more fulfilling and socially constructive existance.
Billy you appear to make similar judgements - perhaps it would be a revelation to you to understand I am not a fundamentalist. I am a traditionalist. Read Guenon Danielou and Evola before you categorise me.
And remember Rob I am not like you - I do not have to be bound by these categorical phantoms which I create to serve me. I can use them and leave them as I please.
If any of you were in trouble - you could rely on me to give my life and soul to support you - I do not extend my commitent to stifling my own thoughts - or to needlessly indulging your second hand drivel. You seem ignorant of the way people around the world debate - you argue not only with your gloves off - but with your hands placed excitedly on each other privates.
In a debate I am not frightened to argue. I find athiesm often amounts to nothing more than verbal diahorrea. I also find many christians like you rob are too defensive of their faith - it is like you are doing something you are ashamed of.
I am sorry If I dont not fit into your little bloggers world. The ideas of tolerence and love which you propose are to me nothing more than the by product of the implicit greed of a western liberal deomocracy. They are virtues which promote commerce - not culture. You have not seen enough of the world to know what love is. To know what is worthy of culturing - and what is worth ignoring. I know people who have died for their faith. What would you die for Rob ? A new book ?
Billy I like your title Mr Mad. Because I would rather be mad than a member of you online old womans group. Why do you cluster into little self supporting groups - why do you share the same idea over and over again ? Do you not get bored. You are nothing more than educated fishwives nattering over yesterdays news.
I will not be joining you on your blog billy. I will leave you to your chorus of croanes - why not rename it "old womans hour" ?
Sam,
I really don’t know what your point in being here is – perhaps you just like to spout hate. You haven’t even answered my original question
why should atheists not be good people?
Al you have done is show that Christianity need not make you a good person. You seem to think that people should live in a certain way – and I challenge you to back up that claim – you have not debated – just accused! and frankly, I don’t have enough respect for your vitriolic attitude to actually be affected by your rants. I don’t know what your problem with Rob is – he seems a really nice chap who does not demand folk live up to his standards. Differences in world view aside, I think I would really like him as a person if we met. You don’t understand people at all – I would also say that you don’t even know the bible – as I have pointed out (without refutation I may add – but hey, you don’t do debate – you insult and proclaim that you are right – lets see if you can back that up . I’m not hopeful.
Let’s take your insistence on building hospitals (incidentally, have you sold every thing and given it to the poor). You should read Romans 12 or 1 cor 12 – not everyone has the same “serving gifts” – however, this is patently obvious to anyone who is not a Christian. Supporting friends is also important for example – it is not all about your agenda (which you are not doing for the sake of going good.
Now, some specifics
So billy you have done something in your life other than negate other peoples belief
Religion when abused hurts people. It also leads to ignorance and someone has to take a stand against ignorant fundamentalists who would deny us freedom and the right to exploring therapeutic strategies into various diseases. I would call that a good cause – and I don’t see prayer curing AIDS, cancer, HIV etc…..
We can have a debate about the nature of truth here, but strangely, you don’t like that and you call people like Rob all sorts of unpleasant names. I have the impression that you can not justify your beliefs. This makes you dangerous – as you think you have unanswerable authority to – well act like a hate filled fundie (had to censor what I really mean out of respect for Bruce – but you can guess).
I would now categorise you as a potentially positive athiest. Categorise. Billy , not judge. I would now categorise you as a potentially positive athiest. Categorise. Billy , not judge.
< sarcasm >That’s mighty big of you< /sarcasm >. However, you have judged me – your initial evaluation was a bigoted generalisation and classification of someone you don’t even know. That isn’t just judgement, its prejudice. For the 3rd time – judge not etc – you hypocrite!
However I do form judgements - generalistations - stereotypes if you like , and I use these to make decisions.
Most balanced people weigh up evidence, then make a decision – you just jump in with both judgemental feet and spout un supported accusations.
Jesus died for his beliefs
So what? So have Kamikazee pilots. I would even argue that a non theist who gives up his life actually makes a greater sacrifice than the supposed one of Jesus – no believing you can resurrect yourself – no reward in heaven…...
In a debate I am not frightened to argue. I find athiesm often amounts to nothing more than verbal diahorrea.
That’s not argueing. Perhaps you can explain. Lets start with whether the omnipotence of god is logically consistent. I’ll start shall I?
God can not make square circles, therefore he can not be omnipotent – your go, and remember, insulting me is not a logically arranged collections of facts and propositions that are ordered in a logical order to present a case.
I am sorry If I dont not fit into your little bloggers world. The ideas of tolerence and love which you propose are to me nothing more than the by product of the implicit greed of a western liberal deomocracy.
Oh well, you ignore the command to love others if you want – you’re not really selling the qualities of your master to me. Like I say, if he’s real, I’m sure that the has a big millstone with your name on it (luke 17:1-6)
I would rather be mad than a member of you online old womans group.
So we can add misogyny to your list of god inspired displays of love.
"We share the same biology regardless of ideology". This is nonsense - a leftover thought of adolescent CND campaigner - hardly befitting a doctor.
Not one of your finest comments – How am I biologically different to you?
Why do you cluster into little self supporting groups -
We don’t. We happen to independently disagree with you – regardless of belief.
I will not be joining you on your blog billy. I will leave you to your chorus of croanes - why not rename it "old womans hour" ?
Shame, you might learn something. You might even get to speak to some real women.
Get well soon.
Thanks for you last post Sam. You seem to have given us a bit more detail ( in between your accusations ).
Is there some reason why you flaunt the norms of common decency ? I assume you can see that your approach is not just being passed of as simply vigourous, much as you would
like to deny. You are acting in a way which we find culturally offensive.
Why ? I there some sort of shell shock syndrome here .It seems like you dont want to fit in. Maybe your experience of the world has been different to us - nobody here wants to hear of anyone who has died because of their faith.
But do we have to pay again for the inequalities of the world ? Jesus himself said the poor you have always with you. The world is messed up are you making it any better.
St Paul said that "he became all things to all men" in order that he might win some for christ. Jesus' anger helped start a movement which speaks of love. I dont deny anyone the right to be angry - but can I ask you where is yours leading ? Nobody here wants to interfere with your right to believe what you want. We may be many things but we are not martyr makers. I dont know what you have experienced - but Billy and I are genuinely concerned.
Billys stance is not neccesarily always directly appealing to me. But billys main concerns seem to be with religious abuse - certainly not with the honest practice of a loving and respectful christian life. He is generous with his time and is quite willing to debate any of the the issues with you - oh and he likes football too.
Perhaps I am getting this wrong. Maybe you are simply a pugnacious and thickskinned character. You say strongly public what others might think mildly in private. But if you are strong minded then can you please think about how you are unsettling other people for no benefit . What about the ideas in the new testament about respecting another mans conscience ? If you class us as weak can you be generous in your strength ?
Either way - and indeed - it may a character such as yourself is both - you may be strong minded and deeply troubled. Can you see as it is - here with us - you are getting nowhere.
If you are the bold character you present yourself as I hope you are equally confident in embracing the idea of change. If you are as troubled as you seem, I hope you will want to.
I enjoy a good argument like everyone else. But this is becoming less about your arguments and more just about you. People are simply asking, why ?
I have just re-read you last post. There is some method in your madness. I can only ask do you want to be this angry ?
Billy
For the sake of sanity. To getback to your question. I dont for a second think that people have to be christians to be "good". However I do think it is difficult to be a christian without being a christian. I also think a good christin is different form a good muslim or hindu.
Christianity has a specific approach to moral behaviour - the 7virtues to contrast the 7 vices. As you will know these were based on the classical virtues but as far as I can remember pride was taken out and faith hope and love added.
Irregardless of the origin of these virtues they are pretty much what I would say an authentic practice of the faith is geared towards. Striving to display these virtues on your own can be difficult. People get into groups to achieve things.
The culture of the church can give a foundation for these virtues to be developed in. Granted the church may at times offer madness but in my experience it also can offer a grounded approach to the spiritual life.
This aspect of church life may be very difficult to an outsider to percieve. One who has not spent his whole life within the church - may not have developed a sense of meaning within - and a personal understanding of the churches teaching. Certainly you can end up with ridiculous attempts at what is quite a difficult religious practice. The Jesus video on your blog is evidence of that.
But really it is a personal choice. If you want to develop these virtues I think it might be a good idea to find a church which is clearly focused on their perfection. That can be difficult but it is by no means impossible.
One of my friends came to my church a while back and said he thought it was very cold and ritualstic. It certainly would be if the words didnt mean anything to you.
St Paul said that "he became all things to all men" in order that he might win some for christ. St Paul said that "he became all things to all men" in order that he might win some for christ.
I was going to mention that to him
I am no man’s slave, but I have made myself a slave to all, in order to win the more for
Christ. To the Jews I have made myself as a Jew, in order to win Jews; to those who live
under the law I have come as one under the law, in order to win those who are under the
law — not that I myself am under the law. To those who live without the law I have come
as one without the law, in order to win those who are without the law — not that I am
really under no law in relation to God, for I am bound by the law of Christ. To those who
are weak I have made myself weak, so as to win the weak; in fact, I have become all things
to all people, in order that, one way or another, I may rescue some of them. But I do it all
for the sake of the gospel, so that I may share its blessings with others” (1 Cor. 9:19-23)
How do you compare Sam? I keep quoting the bible at you, not because I believe it, but because you do. I hope by doing so it will counter your use of it to hold on to what ever anger you contain within you. You seem to have a hardon for being a martyr, but just remember it is what you give, not how much you give (and that goes for anyone, but since you only listen to the bible, try Mark 12 :41-44). Right, that enough help from this atheist who is doing it for the sake of it, expecting no reward.
This preaching business is easy – and you don’t even have to believe! Any one want to hire me for their church? All I ask is that you give me is a tin of quality street and a cup of lapsang souschong, all your money, and any good looking daughters/ sisters you may have.
Billy-
Bad idea. Roses are better than Quality Street.
I dont for a second think that people have to be christians to be "good".
I didn't think you would think that, and I agree with the frame work and support idea.
I do want to challenge Sam with the question though - it seems an alien concept to him
Jonathan,
You mean I can have Roses! Damm! All those years eating the flat toffee one! I thought they were for Agnostics - Praise the tea pot!
Billy this fighting style of yours - of trying to lock me up with my own scriptures does not work with me. I am not bound by the scriptures . I am inspired by them. I said I was a traditionalist. I am not an evangelical.
I only ask Billy does it make you feel good to pick on the weaker members of the christian flock ? The simple evangelical who is easily confused. You at times seem to act beneath yourself - like a hyena - savaging well meaning people of a simple intellect. If I did not respect you I would not tell you this - I think you are a strong enough man to ask yourself this question.
If christ has millstones it is for people who arrest the faith of the simple - whether christians or not. Do you realise some people may not share your sense of boundaries Billy . And I do not think these evangelicals mean you harm. I am on the other hand am not forcing any of you. I issue a challenge as simply and as clearly as I can.
My thoughts may not be attractive, but a stitch in time can save nine. Billy I do not think you are simple minded - some people are and yes they may hold onto some silly ideas, like telling you what to do , but to rubbish their whole life seems cruel. You might want the preachers to leave you alone , but cant you see they may not be able to do that, not yet. Just as you might not be at ease with the christian faith. It seems you have some respect for Bruce and Rob. With experience you might learn that very idea of the faith can make a positive difference in places where otherwise there are little differences to ever be made. Rob nobody is closing doors. Nobody is locking anyone in prisons. I am telling you which doors I think are good and which doors I think are bad. I am telling you as simply as I can from my own experience.
Billy can you concede you have a faith ?
Why else do you dress up in all these christian clothes to lecture me ? Have you kept something from your time in the church ? You seem to be keen to use the bible for good when you see fit. In these moments are you pretending to be a christian - or are you actually being a genuine one ?
Have you learned that the christmas tree is different from the tinsel we hang on it. The life of faith from the ideas which we assosciate with it. The implicit faith within mankind : the hope and the will to choose good : is more than any cultural or way of thinking can ever be.
Perhaps I do have an obsession with martyrdomn, At times I wish it could have been me and not my friends. This cold damp country makes me sick. You are all so intent on keeping the peace ; you cannot see what is happening in the world. Do you realise we sleep on the cries of the dispossesed. People have suffered because of my failures and weaknesses and I have to live with that. Regardless of how much I might try to forgive myself . I still do not want this to happen again.
If people are actually offended Rob then yes I can hold my tongue. It is a shame I would have hoped there was more spirit in you all. It is still hard for me to believe that you are all this sensitive.
Some people have to choose sides and those consequences can be fatal, but you approach ideas as if they were just some game of intellectual chess. Evil has a very real face, and there are ideas which follow in its wake.
Rob perhaps you are happy to look on the world with a soft and childlike mind, many people do not have that luxury. Perhaps I have taunted you the most, if that offends you again I am sorry. But I am impressed by the calmness of your last response to me. Sometimes It is hard for me to follow what you say. But when I am the subject matter it is easier.
I hope you can understand my point of view : God may be a mystery but it is obvious some peoples reflect the divine character and some do not. The choice between peoples can have devastating effects, belief does not occur in a vacuum.
At times, in some places, it is neccesary to take sides.
I have seen this at firsthand. I have seen the smile of men who have no duty to god : men who have no duty to anyone. I have heard their laughter and yes I have seen what they can do.
I am not an atheist. There is little enough good in this world without taking away one of the few possible influences for good we have left.
If I have offended any of you I apologise.
I had hoped for more - for passion and belief - for a will to fight. Your idea of discussion is so lengthy i cannot really see me wanting to join in. To me accusation and debate are inseperable. Perhaps I have lived too long with others who do not share your sensitivities.
But I can try - just once - Billy your logical puzzle about god has a simple answer - your logic cannot contain the majesty of god any more than one photograph can contain the majesty of the mountains you climb. But I am sure others will have said this to you. I am not it seems a debater. I am not sure it is a skill I want to develop.
And if Billy my commitment to change is as you say is my "serving gift" then I am content to walk alone with it - and not confuse it with your gentle urban politics. I will not force the burden god has given me onto your backs. It is there for anyone who would wish to share it : love the poor.
I am only back in the uk until easter - and that is not through choice.You see Rob I do not want to be angry but at times I do have little choice. Yes I would not be so angry If I did not feel so alone. I pray that someday you eyes will be opened to see what we are all doing. I am angry yes. But until you see the foundations of the world we have built with your own eyes, then I think you might find it hard to understand me. You will not have to call me mad, but rather the world.
Billy If you were genuine that I would not be misrepresented - can you please post this reply on your blog. I cannot post on billys site. It seems I need something called a google account - and seriously, I do not want something like that. You might not believe me but it would hurt me to have one of those things.
I do not think any of these blogs are the place for me.
God forgive me.
God forgive everyone one of us.
Go well : every one of you.
Well Sam, you seem less aggressive now.
Let me assure you, I have no faith whatsoever and my moral compass was set without any help from the church whatsoever.
As I have also said, I have no problem with people wanting to live their lives in a way that does not hurt others - or tell them what to do.
I am not picking on anyone - you are the one who came in here accusing folk of all sorts of things - you attack, I reply - it is not picking on you!
We know there are bad things going on - and I do know that holding on to faith in the face of bad stuff can do more damage than good. However, you have no right to tell us how to behave. You have no right to judge us. My day job impacts on the health of hundreds of millions of people world wide, so there are ways of trying to make the world a better place that are different to the ones you want. Many good deed go un noticed - you may want to think about that.
Your answer to my question is an assertion. You have not argued for the greatness of god. The question was also about whether onmipotence is a viable concept - you didn't really address that.
I will post your reply in the Mr Mad thread.
I hope you have learned something
Thanks for your reply Sam.
It is quite interesting to read what you really have to say. No I have not been offended I am more concened with your wellbeing than your opinion of me.
What is it Hamlet says, "I set my lifes at a pins fee". If you want to involve the dane ?
We may ramble like Polonius but I am glad that not everything which is said on these blogs has to be a matter of life or death; no offence to you and your experiences intended....
Besides personally I found some of your images quite amusing. No one has ever called me "stone goldfish" before.
Sam You do seem to take a lot on your shoulders. I do not doubt the relevance of what you talk about but perhaps you will see the UK does not have to be all bad.
Maybe you will even enjoy some of your time here .We may have our faults - but we are still gods people here as well.
Best wishes
R.
Over lunch in the office, I've finally managed to catch up with the comments, at least up to the end of Sam's second last one. I'll get to the rest..
I guessed at the start you probably weren't exchanging opinions about 'The Spy who loved me'.
Anyway, gripping stuff... who knows I might manage to get back to your qs Rob at some point, or at least weave in a response in later posts though I don't have a great record of it.. and I can't deny enjoying some of the hyperbole Sam, stoned goldfish, educated fishwives... Shakespeare himself had a fine line in this kind of thing...
I can't comment much, got to get back to editing a radio piece on kids' answers to the question why don' people like Mondays, but if nothing else some intriguinig qs have been opened up which I'm interested to explore more eg about goodness and salvation, what they mean and how they can be communicated, in our confused pluralistic world.
Searching discussion, challenge and confrontation, hands on good works - there's a place for all of them, a season for everything.
And I remind myself that at the heart of the Christian faith is that everyone is in need of repentance and redemption. And that even Jesus said, 'Why do you call me good? No-one is good but God alone'.
And that even Jesus said, 'Why do you call me good? No-one is good but God alone'.
That raises some important issues :-)
Bruce,
I often think of such verses and ideas bruce. But you have phrased in a way that had never occured to me : that jesus was himself seeking god - that the sonship that he shared with his disciples is ours to uncover amongst each other.
That our path of searching was his as well - gethsemane I have always thought was as much about asking as accepting.
Certainly makes me feel better about not having a clue.
p.s. Billy that verse certainly keeps muslims happy. Oh and bruce i meant to mention - watched an interesting program on the muslim view of jesus over christmas
http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=muslim+jesus&emb=0&aq=f#
Melvin Bragg narrates - through his nose of course...
I'm still catching up with comments, but thanks Sam for your last one - if you see this. You're welcome to drop by, I've been challenged by some of what you've said, there's certainly a place in the conversation for a crusading spirit, God knows as you say there's enough in the world to be angry about. I hope you find some joy in the rest of your time in the UK; I can't deny it's cold and damp, at this time of year at least - that's why so many of us fly abroad at some point to get a vitamin D boost. I just heard yesterday that Radio 1's Zane Lowe returns to NZ for the month every year; who can blame him.
Lee count yourself a fortunate chap.
Wow. Thanks Sam. Really. Oh...did I say thank you?
BILLY: God can not make square circles
Sure He can. They're "circles with an edge!
**drum beat and I am outta here. tip your waitress**
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