I didn't address the summer solstice with the reverence it is due the other day, commenting what a nice day it was for it(!) I've always found the yearly rhythms of the planet awesome to ponder: the way this vast spinning ball, passing through its tilting-on-axis phases on the macro, astronomical level, produces on the micro, earthbound level the breath-taking evolving kaleidoscope of the seasons. A cycle from which all of nature benefits in its different ways: from the level of simple survival to our own aesthetic appreciation of autumn's sweeping hues. How it all 'hangs together' for both benefit and pleasure. I recall learning how the rate of the shortening and lengthening of the days accelerates towards the equinoxes and slows towards the solstices. Like being on a giant cyclical rollercoaster, without the sickening feeling. Whe-hey!
A friend has drawn my attention to an article today interviewing former triple jumper Jonathan Edwards about his loss of faith. http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/more_sport/athletics/article1991114.ece. My first reaction: JE's faith was clearly very tied up with his sporting achievements, and as he himself admits, he inhabited a very simple world at that time where he didn't question his faith. Exiting from that world has inevitably been an unsettling experience. What bothers me is that his testimony seems to buy into the commonly held idea that religious beliefs are fixed constructs in a person's head that, instead of having the potential to grow and develop, are brittle and vulnerable to being shattered by 'truth' as yet unexposed to. Whereas my experience is that faith is a journey where yes, doubts have to be confronted but fresh dimensions of spiritual truth are also constantly being discovered - if I persist in heeding the so far unvanquished sense that there really is something in it.
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17 comments:
As upsetting as I found Jonathan Edwards article, I have to admire his honesty. Having been through a similar experience myself (I'm referring to the doubts, not the athletic ability!!!) I know that its something that some people have to go through. Blindly following a particular belief just because somebody has told you its true without investigating it for yourself will inevitably lead to a crisis of faith at some point!
However, in my experience, after I turned away from God, everything else in my life fell apart, everything was stripped away until I eventually saw clearly that all that was left was God.
I think questioning is a good thing, but I just pray that Jonathan Edwards does not stop there and assume that he has reached the end of the road. I believe that if he digs and investigates and truly seeks then he will discover that God is truly real and he will have a much firmer foundation of faith than he ever had before.
I think that every human being owes it to themselves to seek the truth and never stop trying to find out more. None of us has reached the end of the journey and when we think that we have come to our final conclusions there will always be some unexpected question rearing its ugly head and challenging those conclusions.
I believe the search for truth ultimately leads to God, but others may disagree, and fair enough, I'm only human and may be wrong (although I'm utterly convinced I'm not!) but for people to give up searching is the saddest thing in the world.
I believe the search for truth ultimately leads to God, but others may disagree,
Hi Biz, I disagree. Having said that, like most Athiests, if Jesus appeared, I would agree. I often find that christians base their faith on a presupposition that has no evidence for it. I can accept people being honest about that. I cant accept it when people say it is a reasonable position though. I think that is the realisation that JE has made here
I'm glad he feels good about it, for me and many others it was a traumatic experience. The way you viewed the universe in the past is now no longer valid and you struggle for a bit. Having come through it, I'm much more fulfilled than I was as a christian. I also dont have to struggle with what is going on when life throws bad things at you. Always trying to work out what god was trying to tell me in difficult situations only made them worse. I'm sure you know the thoughts:"why isn't god helping me?" "Where is he?" "What does he want me to learn?" and you end up banging your head against a wall of silence.
I remember in an interview once, Johnathan Edward's coach was asked about his claims of help from god. he said that all faith had done was make johnathan's life more complicated. As an aside, I read a comment on Richard Dawkins web site saying that god must be releaved. At the start of competitions you have 10 athletes all crossing themselves at the start, so at least god now has one less decision to make regarding who to help win :-)
I think that touches on another topic best left for another time.
Billy
Thanks Billy, I appreciate what you went through because I've been there too and the fact that we both came to very different conclusions doesn't mean that I don't know where you're coming from.
I would like to add though that when you said, "I often find that christians base their faith on a presupposition that has no evidence for it", I think that statement works both ways. Athiests make the presupposition that God doesn't exist -although perhaps your position is different because you used to believe in God so have obviously thought about it a lot, however there is not evidence at all to prove that God doesn't exist, so I think the viewpoint that God exists is just as valid as the view that he doesn't.
As for Richard Dawkins, I would be prepared to give him more time if he didn't always seem so angry! Maybe I should give him more time anyway? I might have a look at his website just so I know what I'm talking about!
Thanks for your comments Biz, Billy. Just to complete the triumvurate, now it's me, Bruce - BBB.
It does disturb me that JE doesn't appear to have explored and questioned and wrestled with his faith and God more when he was in sport. Saying he now sees God as 'sports psychology in all but name' indicates his view of God was far too limited and tied up with his sporting goals and achievements. The God I believe in is so much bigger, wilder, more personal and unpredicatable than that. Billy, I too have had plenty of questions and doubts along the way - still do. These can afflict you in the surface, thought life, as you look out on a messy world. I guess the most important thing that has developed for me though is a sense of the inner life of the spirit, which I believe we all have but can shrivel or even die if not nurtured. This is the place, like a secret garden, where I sense God speaks and moves me to act - if I still myself and listen. To do that does require a little faith, but in my experience God does respond to that and reveal more of himself and his will, feeding a growing faith. To adopt an attitude of complete scepticism though will prevent this life of the spirit from having a chance to exist or flourish.
Hi Biz,
Athiests make the presupposition that God doesn't exist -although perhaps your position is different because you used to believe in God so have obviously thought about it a lot, however there is not evidence at all to prove that God doesn't exist, so I think the viewpoint that God exists is just as valid as the view that he doesn't.
I cant deny that some atheists may make this assumption, but I have never actually met one who does. The fact that you can't prove something does not exist does not make it likely that it does. Bertrand Russell makes the analogy of a tea pot orbiting the moon. You cant prove it's not there, but it is not likely to be there. The same can be said of Allah, vishnu, Gaia, Bramhin, Zeus, fairies and the flying spaghetti monster. We don't give these all equal probability of existance as a computer screen that you can see. That is one reason why atheists think all gods are improbable. In the same way, you probably would not accept an assertion that Venus is inhabited by a race of 5 legged waiters - you would require some evidence.
We could hold up the gospels as evidence, we could even assume for the sake of argument that some of the writers knew jesus, we could even assume for the sake of argument that he existed. However, when you look at them more closely, there are many problems : history, theology, corroboration, genealogies, failed prophecies and contrived prophetic fulfilment (read micah 5:2 and Isaiah 7:14 in context for example - as well as problems of translation - "village" vs "clan" and "young woman" vs "virgin") to name a few. So, as well as there being no direct evidence for any god, there is actually evidence against your god - i'ts the same with other gods I’ve looked at too.
I think Dawkins often gets a bad press. There is even one minister in Dundee who goes about putting words into Richard's mouth that he never said. He does point out a lot that is wrong with religion ( which I would like to distinguish from a personal faith). A lot of the bad things done in religions name makes him angry, and it should. It should also make decent religious people angry too. Have you seen this for example http://youtube.com/watch?v=mZ_yxionctY
(I know that not all christians are not like this before someone jumps on my case).
He also feels angry about creationists who would like to silence science and misrepresent it. I commented briefly about that on Bruce's "organised religion" post. As a scientist, I can confirm that these guys lie about evolution to discredit it. It is not a quibble over interpretations, it is lying. Anyway, I think arguments are more important than personalities.
I have said to Bruce that RD's site needs more decent christians who are open minded. Infact, a few are calling for some given the level of vitriol and abuse spouted there from a certain Dundonian wee free, so I'm sure you would be welcomed
Billy
PS without your presuppositions, hw do you know god exists?
Bruce It's lunch time, I'll get back to you later
EDIT
This is a "better" version of the link. It contains the sickenng image of a toddler singing about how much god hates the world. This is the kind of stuff RD is talking about when he gets angry http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2007/06/its_not_quite_we_are_the_world.php
Billy
No burce, you've not become mr popular, I just realised that I didn't put the full link in :-) http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2007/06/its_not_quite_we_are_the_world.php
3rd time lucky - doh!
Argh,this is getting annoying, apparently I did, but it has been truncated. Do you know how to fix it. Anyway , anyone interested can can search for the pharyngula websote, then search it for god hates the world
You're right I can't prove the existence of God and I do come with my own presuppositions, but I feel like my beliefs are more grounded in my experience of God (or whatever other explanation you would give to explain those experiences) than they ever were before I had my 'crisis of faith' (where before that I believed because Christians told me it was true). Now my beliefs are based on my own investigation and experience, (although that investigation is again based upon certain pre-suppositions, it is impossible to have a viewpoint without a starting point)
The main thing that I see as evidence for my faith is that one of my friends was healed of ME overnight, through prayer. Now you may be able to attribute that to a freak scientific coincidence, or to purely psychological phenomena, but for me the most logical explanation was God (again because I'm starting with the presupposition that he exists!)
However, this healing (or "healing" if you prefer!) is not the basis for my faith, it is just one of many things that has helped to strengthen it over the years.
I've decided to give Richard Dawkins a fair chance, because if as you say it is this extreme 'christianity' that is causing his anger, then he is completely justified because it angers me too (I saw the article about 'Jesus Camp' and much of that angered me too -especially the implication that to be Christian is to support George Bush!! Which I'd like you to know, I don't!)
I've had a quick glance at his website but it will take me a while to read enough to form any sort of opinion on it. However, if I decide to become an athiest as a result I'll let you know ;-) (Not likely though!!)
Hi Bruce,
It does disturb me that JE doesn't appear to have explored and questioned and wrestled with his faith and God more when he was in sport.
Obviously you are speaking from a point of faith here – faith that your god is real. None of us can make assumptions about JE. None of us know what went on. Having said that, I will make this point. It is possible that he realised it was unnecessary and was holding him back. I’ve certainly been held back in the past when I believed.
Saying he now sees God as 'sports psychology in all but name' indicates his view of God was far too limited and tied up with his sporting goals and achievements.
Is it possible that faith serves as a psychological crutch that helps some people? I feel you are looking at this in terms of what he has done wrong. I prefer to ask what does this tell us about the nature of faith?
The God I believe in is so much bigger, wilder, more personal and unpredicatable than that.
Are you not shaping things to fit your own ideas of what god should be here? Do you not think this prevents you realising the possibility that you may be wrong? There are also many views of god, all based on cherry picked bible verses. The west boro Baptists actually have an easy job justifying their pathological beliefs from the bible. This suggests to me that often god is what people want/need him to be. Can you provide any evidence to the contrary? What is it that makes you form the view that you have? Some people seem to believe because that is what they inherited from their parents or peers: you don’t have a random distribution of faiths in the world after all, you don’t get mass spontaneous convertions to Christianity in Saudi Arabia (and I know some who are praying for it).
As I look out onto a messy world, the only thing that really makes any sense is Atheism and Darwinism. Not god and sin. We both agree that the world is a mess partly through selfishness. I would call that a legacy of our evolutionary past; which I think has fatal implications for “fall” theology. We can investigate this rationally and Darwinian theory describes the facts beautifully – right down to the fact we are less “selfish” with our kin.
To do that does require a little faith, but in my experience God does respond to that and reveal more of himself and his will, feeding a growing faith. To adopt an attitude of complete scepticism though will prevent this life of the spirit from having a chance to exist or flourish.
I could ask “why should I pursue this in the absence of evidence?” One main problem I have is that your reason is purely subjective, and we all have the ability to delude ourselves. If I want to believe in Santa Claus enough, I will. That’s not evidence that there really is a Santa – although the rationalist was there at an early age, I once set a trap for Santa. The only problem: I told my dad about it. Should have told my mum in hindsight :-)
Cheers
Billy
Cheers Biz,
Interestingly, lack of "healings" was one thing that started me to doubt. If I personally saw an amputee grow a new leg, I would certainly take note.
I'm glad your friend is better and stays that way, but if it's not too personal, how do you know they were really healed? I knows a few people with ME and it comes and goes. One day they are bed ridden, then the next they are jumping out of planes and climbing overhanging cliffs (well not literally the next day), then they relapse again.
especially the implication that to be Christian is to support George Bush!! Which I'd like you to know, I don't!)
YEAH something to agree on. That is a major concern though, there is a strong political voice trying to turn the US into a theocracy - a kind of "Christian Taliban" state (I fear the SCP would do the same here given the opportunity). There was a survey recently that showed Americans would rather vote for a homosexual than an Atheist. Coming from a vocally homophobic country (in certain quarters) That should make folk who care about freedom and equality worry. It would be good to actually hear more christians talk about yhis publically. I think there is an element of truth that moderates provide a safe buffer for the extremists to exist
Hi Billy, this is what happened to my friend:
The Sunday before my friend was healed I gave her a lift to church as I quite often did and she was struggling to walk from the car to the door which was only a few feet, and she had been that ill for about 2 years (with better days sometimes admittedly, but generally always pretty bad), then she was prayed for on the Thursday. She seemed to know that God was going to heal her that night, but we were all really worried about her getting her hopes up as she had been disappointed before.
Late that night she sent a text saying that Jesus had healed her, to which I responded quite cynically and thought 'I'll believe it when I see it' and was really worried now that she was really getting her hopes up and the disappointment would be even worse when she got ill again!
It wasn't until I saw her on the Sunday that I realised the amazing difference in her. The first thing I noticed was that she was standing in church (she had been unable to do that for the last 2 years). Then I witnessed her walking, running, dancing. She spent an afternoon walking round Glasgow and the only adverse effect was sore muscles because she hasn't been using them for 2 years!
The best thing is that it was March 2005 that she was healed and now 2 years later she is working as a youth worker doing a job that makes me tired just by looking at her!
I don't know what you make of that but, that's the story from my perspective. I believe that God healed her, but if there is some other rational, scientific explanation for it then it has to be the biggest coincidence in the world. And if it is purely psychological then surely the periods of doubt and worry that it might come back would have caused in her a relapse?
In my opinion there have been too many 'coincidences' in my experience of God for it to be merely coincidence.
I'm glad we're both agreed on the George Bush thing, a bit of common ground is always good ;-)
Sorry Bruce for talking to Billy and ignoring you when its your blog!! I think you win the prize for the record number of comments though!!
Hi Biz, thanks for sharing. I do think there is a natural explanation though, and many doctors think the illness is more psychological than physical. Either way, it is devastating. One of my friend's mums has been struggling with it on and off for 33 years. My friend was laid out with it for 2 years, then almost instantly got better. 3 months later we were doing difficult climbs together, then he relapsed, then he got better and went off toured Africa and climbed mount Kenya. He has been well for the last 5 years. Another friend had it for 3 years and was free of it for 10 years, in the mean time she has travelled the world, was climbing 2 times a week and doing karate twice a week. Unfortunately, a few months ago, she relapsed.
I remember praying for someone at housegroup (never met them) who had been suffering for 4 years, I asked about them a couple of years ago and they were still suffering, so, naturally I don't belive god had anything to do with it.
It really would take something unequivocal like growing a new limb to convince me. I can understand how you use all these other coincidences to support this claim, but are you being selective here? Choosing the good bits and putting the bad bits down to god knows best? Thats what I did. I found it exhausting. Often I would find that I thought I knew god's will and plan, but the results were disasterous - for myself and others - particularly one guy I "converted". I found this too subjective an approach to form your view of reality. The problem I had was that you view the world in terms of a percieved truth about god, so in many respects, this type of faith is self fulfilling. That only becomes apparent once you step back.
Any way, hope your friend stays well
Have you ever seen Derren Brown convert folk through hypnosis?
BTW Shut up Bruce, we can't get a word in edge ways :-)
Billy
Thanks Billy, lets agree to disagree for now. I'm just about to go away for the weekend but its been really interesting talking to you, I'll certainly look into all those websites you suggested.
I'm praying I get to witness a limb growing back soon, and I'll let you know when it happens!! ;-)
And thanks Bruce for the blog space!! Prob see you Sunday night.
Sorry haven't yet been very responsive guys, just been a bit busy and not in front of a computer! I will be reading all comments and responding soon. Nice to get all this chat though.
Sorry haven't yet been very responsive guys, just been a bit busy! I will be reading all comments and responding soon! Nice to get all this chat though.
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